[Axel]

Feat: Weapon Proficiency
You know how to use a weapon

Entails no bonuses. Characters cannot use special characteristics of weapons they are not familiar with. When using a varient of a weapon they know how to use the character suffers a penalty equal to 1/4 of their Base Attack Bonus. When using a weapon utilizing a principle similar to one they understand (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing) the character loses their strength bonus as well as suffering a penalty of 1/4 their BAB. When using a weapon completely alien the character loses all bonuses and must hit with an unadjusted roll.
Characters cannot use ranged weapons they are unfamiliar with.

Characters get a bonus weapon proficiency for every feat they get through normal advancement. (note: this includes the special ability Bonus Feat, but not the racial bonus feat available to humans)

What do you think? I mean who here really thinks that just be being created a character should automatically be able to use that whole list of weapons under their description. And that's not really fair to characters who want to start out with something like a Bastard Sword which they need a special feat to use even if they want to take that as their only weapon at first level. This way any character can use any weapon but the weapons they can use are more realistically determined. I also feel that through the bonus proficiencies helps keep things balanced by not requiring a character use an otherwise normally gained feat to learn a new weapon. This also gives Fighters a new edge because they can get so learn new weapons so much faster compared to other combat classes because of their bonus feats.

[Shadowborn]

Then you're back to 2nd edition, where your wizard is left only being able to use a missile weapon for the first few levels, and unarmed if forced into hand-to-hand combat. Not to mention all the fun feats for fighters that go by the wayside because you're too busy spending your feats to learn how to use weapons.

I like the system of weapons the way they are. It streamlines the learning curve. Besides, if it's not broken, don't try to fix it.

[Axel]

1. You may have noticed, I gave bonus weapon proficiencies every time you gan a new proficiency. This means that at level 1 you get a number of bonus weapon proficiencies equal to the number of feats you have.... alright, maybe that one needs rethinking....
2. Again by getting bonus weapon proficiencies for every one of his bonus feats the Fighter gets a huge new advantage. Specifically that he can learn weapons so much faster.

[BrotherMouran]

I don't know about the rest of you, but my general experience is that most players have their characters generally stick with a few weapon types over the life of the character even if they have the option of using many sorts. The only reason for constant weapon changes throughout a character's life is if the DM is constantly feeding the group different and better weapons of different types all the time.

Even then, most players still stick with certain weapons. A roleplaying player will usually restrict their weapon choices to the image they have of their character... a power gamer will restrict his choices to the most powerful/efficient weapon he can get. Most folks that I've played with will take a good weapon that is dropped but with the intent of selling it or trading it for an improved version of a weapon type they prefer.

For when I DM, if a player wants to start using a new weapon they've found (but technically have the proficiency to use), I generally expect them to make some RPing efforts of practicing with the weapon and getting used to it. I'll also give them a temporary penalty to-hit with the weapon while getting used to it. A short sword user who starts using a long sword will probably have a -1 to hit for two or three fights since the weapons and styles are similar; a short sword-wielder who starts trying to fight with a greatclub will have a more severe penalty which will slowly diminish as they get get used to it as the fighting styles between the two are totally different. If there is some down time in the game (party takes a few weeks to rest and heal in town, for example) if the character finds someone who can train him that eases the process as well.

To sum up, the only reason the current proficiency system should be a problem is if you let it become a problem.

[Axel]

I've already had a problem with the current system. One of my players wanted to use a Bastard sword as his starting weapon. Unfortunately the rules allow fighters a huge array of weapons just by existing, but required he waste a feat learning to use the only weapon he wanted in the first place.

[SchizofranicDM]

Just to note, one aspect of the bastard sword is that any character who can use a martial weapon proficiently can wield a bastard sword without any penalties, however, it must be wielded two handed. The extra feat is used to allow a character to use it one handed. A bastard sword as a hand-and-a-half weapon meaning that it is generally used two handed, but with special training, it can be wielded effectively with one hand. Also, there is something else that you can include in your gaming system that resembles the weapon familiarity ability in 3.5. With that dwarves are no longer required to take a feat to effectively use a dwarven waraxe or dwarven urgrosh, after all, those weapons were dwarven creations and designed for dwarves. Why would a regular dwarf need training to effectively wield a weapon that was designed for them? Now what i am suggesting is that perhaps different areas of your gaming world have developed varying styles of warfare. Perhaps one society is more efficient with a certain type of weapon. What you could then do is switch two normal Martial Weapons for one Exotic Weapon. Keep in mind that the exchange must be believeable. For example (and i'm sure oriental style characters are out of your current world, Axel), it would not be realistic in your world to use this replacement technique to make nunchaku's a regular martial weapon. But as for the bastard sword, consider turning it into a regular martial weapon and trade it in for a greatsword and a scimitar. why? Perhaps in this society, bastard swords are more common. In this society, curved blades like scimitars are unheard of or seen as much more exotic than a bastard sword. And greatswords are far to heavy to be wielded effectively even with two hands and thus require special training to wield two-handed. Now this would add much more realism to a game. afterall, how many scimitars were there in a Viking army? Also consider this, in general, a fighter type character will be efficient in using a variety of weapons at early levels due to some measure of training. Albeit not the 50 or so weapons on page 98, but a good deal of them (perhaps it would be simpler to narrow the field). And as for those characters that only seem to use one kind of weapon or weapon type, I am almost certain that those individuals have or will chose feats like weapon focus, weapon finnese, or anyt feat of that type with thier 'favored weapon'. And so it makes sense. Indeed the knight can effectively wield a mace or a halberd in combat, but when given his beloved claymore, he becomes a force to be reckoned.

[Axel]

....Why are you telling me all this? I am proposing a system that allows players the maximum personal choice in determing the weapons their characters use. This is my purpose far more than prohibitting players from overusing the availability of weapons to their class. Allowing them to self-determine what weapons they use. I include these penalties to give the system a purpose, and to allow players to use weapons they are forced to by circumstance despite the loss of their otherwise huge availability.

[Rintaran]

Ok everyone, here's a big shocker: Axel, I agree with you when you say that it's quite wrong for a 1st level fighter to be proficient in every martial and simple weapon. In this respect, 2E was better with their Weapon/Non-weapon Proficiency tables. Ok, I realize I just scared about half the readers, but allow me to go on here.

Say I decided I wanted to be a soldier in a well-trained medieval army (most medieval armies were very poorly trained). Chances are, I'm gonna get pretty good training in one or two weapons, no more than three. I'll either be a bowman, a pikeman, or infantry (unless I'm special and make it to cavalry, woot). So, I'm not gonna know much about weaponry, even after being there for say, 5 years. I've 5 years of soldiering down, but still lack the weapon expertise of a first level druid (let alone a fighter)!

I could go to a school and get training, but even after years of training, I won't be an expert in too many weapons. In fact, I'll still have trouble wielding most of them. I may get the chance to learn a few more weapons. I can't spend all my time training because I still have to earn money to pay rent, buy food, mend or purchase clothing, and pay for my lessons.

To say someone who goes to, say, a "fighter's academy", trains for a while, and is suddenly able to properly wield a dozen or so weapons, is about as realistic as jumping from the roof and flying by flapping my arms.


That all being said, I'm not entirely sure about your weapon feat system. Here are my reservations:

1. The requirement that all ranged weapons are considered alien unless the specific weapon proficiency is taken. Although a longbow and a dart are completely different, a longbow and a composite longbow (or even a shortbow) are relatively similar. I could see there being a penalty of 1/4 BAB, but not a complete no-touch.

2. Even being unfamiliar with a ranged weapon, one could still pick it up and try if there isn't any other choice. Perhaps a loss of the BAB in its entirety could be applied here as well as to completely unfamiliar melee weapons.

3. Bonus weapon proficiency every 4 levels + Bonus feats, that could stack up really fast, and would (by your description I believe) apply to wizard bonus feats as well. Perhaps allowing one every 4 levels, and modifying the "fighting" classes to gain them at other times during their advancement would be more adviseable.

[dm4life165]

Sorry, I've been following this post but I don't know what BAB is, can someone help me?

[Rintaran]

BAB = Base Attack Bonus

[dragonhand777]

Rintaran, on Sep 16 2004, 06:04 PM, said:

Ok everyone, here's a big shocker:  Axel, I agree with you when you say that it's quite wrong for a 1st level fighter to be proficient in every martial and simple weapon.  In this respect, 2E was better with their Weapon/Non-weapon Proficiency tables.  Ok, I realize I just scared about half the readers, but allow me to go on here.

Actually it was kinda cool to finaly get to a post where some one else actually agreed with what Axel was trying to do! And not only that, but explained rather well why the current system doesn't really make sense.

Quote

I don't know about the rest of you, but my general experience is that most players have their characters generally stick with a few weapon types over the life of the character even if they have the option of using many sorts.

I have experianced and noticed the same thing. As a player and now as a DM. Most players it seems (my self being one of them) seem to stick with the same weapon for a character.

By the way, the bastard sword happens to be one of my personal faves.

Axel, I like your idea but I'm not sure I agree 100% with how you're doing it. Gaining the feats (as extras) so they don't count against your regular alotment isn't a bad idea, but just how many times is a character going to need or require such another proficiency?

I may do something simpler such as; When a player chooses a martial type class, the player may choose four weapons that their character is familiar with. Non-martial type can only choose two. Using a weapon w/o being proficient incures a -4 penalty.

A character proficient with a longbow is also proficient with short and composite versions. A character proficient with a longsword is also proficient with scimitars. A character proficient with the falchion is also proficient with a bastard sword. A character proficient with a club is also proficient with a morningstar and mace. etc. etc. I may still need to work on this a bit, though. Like should a rapier be included with the longsword, or with short sword and dagger? Hmmm...

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

I also agree with Axel for the same reasons that Rintarin does. The way I do weapon changing is the same way that Brother Mouran does. If the player is a fighter and finds the need to use a weapon that is not normally used by the character but is still found in the Martial Weapon list, I would allow the usage of the weapon but with a small minus for the first few times it is used if the weapon is not similar to any other weapon the character already uses frequently.

[Axel]

Actully the original version of the feat was exactly as you suggest. I gave each class a number of bonus proficiencies at 1st level and that was it. But I thought maybe that wasn't fair since as they progressed they would be forced to waste extra feast just to expand the number of weapons they could use.
Maybe something more like this? Instead of the bonus proficiency for every feat:
At first level every character gains a number of bonus weapon proficiencies depending on class. For every level after first new weapons must be bought as regular feats. The first level bonus proficiencies are as follows:
Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian: 4
Bard, Rogue, Cleric, Druid: 3
Wizard, Monk: 2

I also put the system of penalties the way I did because I don't think similar weapons would be quite similar enough that it doesn't affect your fighting style. Consider a Longsword and Rapier, very similar weapons, aren't they? But a longsword is a slashing weapon, while the rapier is a stabbing weapon. Therefore you'd miss certain openings if you were used ot one and using the other, even though you'd be pretty good with it.
But maybe another feat that waives the penalties? Perhaps:
Weapon Versatility
You are particularly good with weapons.
Prerequisite: Must have at least 4 different weapons proficiencies (Note: include a Fighter's weapon specialization as a weapon proficiency), Must have a proficiency with a bludgeoning, slashing, piercing, and ranged weapon.
When using a weapon with which you are unfamiliar you do not suffer the usual penalties. Instead when using a weapon very similar to one which you are proficient with you incur no penalty. When fighting with a weapon that utilizes a principle similar to one you already understand you incur a penalty of only 1/4 your Base Attack Bonus.
When using a ranged weapon with which you are unfamiliar you lose your Dex. bonus but can otherwise use it normally.

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

Actually I think I like that idea. Not exactly sure if I am going to use it myself but it makes sense.

My only thing about this is that I believe the Barbarian and Cleric might be moved down one level. Just because of the way a Barbarian is described, I feel that they would not be as knowledgeable with certain weapons. The way I see Barbs, they are big brutal machines that use the biggest weapons to destroy and are not as versatile. Clerics I don't really have a reason for except that I am going with my gut.

One question I have is whether or not you have to have one proficiency in each type of weapon or just proficiencies with a couple of them?

[SchizofranicDM]

There are many great aspects this tompic has brought up. Leave it to Axel to break something for us to fix (and i mean that in a good way, i love the challenge). I also find some agreable ground with this new variation of weapon proficiency. I just think that it can be done without creating a new feat. I',m not saying how, i'm just saying there could be a new way.