[MishRaKhan]

I have a player my game who argues that a ranged touch attack is not discharged untill it hits something. Here is his logic:



The way I understand the "Touch Attacks in Combat" rule (page 140-142)
for both regular and ranged touch attacks
1) Cast spell
2) Attempt touch attack (I see successful touch attacks, both regular and ranged, like connecting auras)
If successful - discharge spell
If unsuccessful - hold spell until one of the following
A) successful touch attack in subsequent rounds
Touch another object or character
C) Cast another spell
D) Dismiss spell

page 175 - Effects-rays
fire rays like ranged weapons including at at invisible creatures
and in the dark - hoping you hit something - obstacles and cover apply

page 171 - Spell Failure
spells fail when
1) Concentration checks fail
2) incorrect range, target or area conditions

page 171 - The Spells Result
calculate spells result when you know the creatures that are affected.
(ie. when a touch attack succeeds or creatures in an area attack attempt their saving throws)

page 176 - Touch Spells and Holding the Charge
exceptions to being able to hold the charge after missing touch attacks are on multiple target spells like
teleport and water walk.

A 3rd level wizard gets one 2nd level spell/ day (I get two w/ my int bonus)
If ray attacks were like shooting arrows, the penalty for a miss would be too severe
it would be like a fighter losing their best weapon for the day

Order of events for normal and ranged touch attacks
Cast spell > Succeed on touch attack (personal or aura ray) > discharge spell

TD

What do you think?

[Hawkofthemay]

Hello and welcome to the boards!

I disagree with the player. He has left the whole rule about holding a charge. Here it is from PHB p 140 or http://www.d20srd.or...hSpellsinCombat.

"Touch Spells in Combat
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks
Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Holding the Charge
If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge. "


That rule only applies to spells with the range touch. Scorching ray has a range of Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels), so this rule doesn’t apply. If you miss the spell is lost.


As for the penalty to miss, they are balanced with the advantages of rays. For example an Ogre's Touch AC is an 8, so on a straight d20 roll there is a 60% chance of a hit. Then if you hit most rays do not have saving throws.

[Cuilean]

I agree with HotM's assessment.

"Ranged touch" is not the same as "touch"; you are still firing a ray, and that ray is discharged whether or not you actually hit. "Scorching Ray" (a ranged touch spell) still fires a searing ray of light off whether or not you hit anything with it. By way of comparison, "Shocking Grasp" (a touch spell) doesn't go off unless you hit something with your hand.

They're balanced so that the average damage dealt is roughly the same. Take this example:

An average 3rd level mage casts:

• Scorching Ray: 4d6, hits ~50% of the time. 14 median damage * 50% hit probability = 7 points of damage.
  
• Magic Missile: 2d4+2, hits 100% of the time. 7 median damage * 100% hit probability = 7 points of damage.

Note, however, that a lot of evokers who know they're going to be playing with ranged touch attacks put one of their better stats into Dex, for both the ranged attack bonus and the AC benefits of avoiding being the recipient of the same sort of attack. Their likelihood of hitting a target is actually better than the combat-trained fighter in the group because they don't have to worry about pesky things like armor getting in the way.

Thanks for nudging my head, BTW, HotM --- I have to remind Cham that if he just wants to *tap* someone to set off SG, he can. I only force him to wait a round in between if he wants to swing it as a punch to add the unarmed combat damage. I don't think I was particularly clear on my explanation of that to him.

[MishRaKhan]

Thanks all,
My initial reply was:
A ray will usually hit something in a confined
space i.e. indoors. Even outside it will probably
hit something.

As s science teacher you should know the nature
of a ray. Turn on a flashlight for a second and
try to hit something with the beam. If you miss
what you were aiming at it will hit something
near by. Even if you shoot it into space that
amount of energy is lost.

You say the penalty is to severe? A chance to
miss is to severe? It is a touch attack so you
avoid armor, shield and natural armor. That makes
stuff real easy to hit. There is already no
saving throw for this spell. You do not have to
get in harms way to cast this spell. It would be
broken for a 2nd level spell to work the way you
would like it to.

Your comparison to a fighter is neither here nor
there. You are not a fighter. Well except for
your level of Barbarian. You select spells, you
use them up, you need to rest and get more. When
you get to higher levels you will get more
spells. Hopefully it will seem more fair to you.

You are not required to select any ray attack
spells. there are a wide variety of 2nd level
spells. Invisibility, flaming sphere, see
invisible, glitter dust, web, tasha's hideous
laugh, shatter, blur, Blindness/deafness, and on
and on.

Over and over in all these descriptions it says
when you 'discharge' the spell. to launch a ray
attack is to 'discharge' the spell. When you roll
to hit you 'discharge' the spell.


Looks like everyone agrees

[Raven Bloodmoon]

While the arguments presented here are all perfect, I'd like to point out the other argument that never fails, especially when it comes to rules adjudication: The DM just said that's the way it is.

As an intellectual debate, such things are fine, but in any case where the game balance would be disrupted, the DM wins by default. The players just have to pray that the DM didn't make things worse.