[theshim]

So I had a character I was RPing in a MUD, and I wanted to make him a D&D character. I tried to keep him as much in spirit with the character I'd developed as possible, but with D&D stats and whatnot. So he ended up being a Fighter, but he uses dual daggers and light armor. In fact, he'd be good as a ranger, except he's more of a combat specialist and has no nature ties at all.

However, he's suffering from an ancestral curse. A Demon takes over the members of his clan when they become enraged. Due to some nifty plot, which I very much enjoyed writing, he was for the first time able to subdue the Rage Demon, and can assume Demon form...within limits.

Sooo...class abilities...I'll write it out like in the handbooks.

1: DC 11, Demon Form 1/day, Struggle for Control, Rage Demon
2: DC 13,
3: DC 14, Demon Form 2/day
4: DC 16, Charged Strike +1d6/+1
5: DC 17, Demon Form 3/day, Demonic Resistance
6: DC 19
7: DC 20, Demon Form 4/day
8: DC 22, Charged Strike +1d6/+2, Blurred Distinction
9: DC 23, Demon Form 5/day
10: DC 25, Demonic Warding
11: DC 26, Demon form 6/day
12: DC 28, Charged Strike +2d6/+3, Greater Demon Form
13: DC 29, Demon Form 7/day
14: DC 31
15: DC 32, Demon Form 8/day
16: DC 34, Charged Strike +2d6/+4
17: DC 35, Demon Form 9/day
18: DC 37
19: DC 38, Demon form 10/day
20: DC 40, Charged Strike +3d6/+5

Demon Form: When he assumes Demon Form, his appearance changes...mostly important are the pieces of armor that partially cover him, especially the gauntlets, which are used as long, slashing claws. In Demon Form he gains +2 Str, +2 Con, and +2 AC, as well as +1 to all saves. He can maintain this form for 4 rounds +1/2 levels. The claws do 1d6 (had it as 1d8, but that was way overpowered) damage and count as dual-wielded with a light off-hand weapon.

Struggle for Control: When he assumes Demon Form, there is a chance that the Rage Demon will take control, at which point it will go into a killing frenzy of everything around it. The Will Save is listed above (10 + 1.5*level). Even once the Demon has control he continues to fight: it is checked for control each round, with each failed save lowering the DC by 1. Rounds when the Demon is in control are not counted towards the daily limit, but once the Demon is banished he cannot be called out again for the rest of the day (as the character won't try to take him on again).

Rage Demon: If the character ever goes well and truly berserk, and/or voluntarily gives himself over to the Demon, the Demon's full powers can be manifested. He gains +8 Str, +8 Con, +5 AC, haste, wings (with a fly speed of 30 ft and good maneuverability), +4 to all saves, doubled resistances (if level 5 or higher), and +5 SR (if level 10 or higher). The claws now inflict 1d10 damage. Control is not checked for 1d6 rounds, and the DC is 10 + twice the level. The rage lasts until a successful save. NOTE THAT THIS CAN REALLY ONLY BE BROUGHT ABOUT BY DEUS EX MACHINA, AS HE WILL NEVER VOLUNTARILY GIVE HIMSELF OVER!

Charged Strike: The character manifests the Demon's power as energy around his attacks when in Demon Form. Deals extra damage (+1d6 at level 4, +2d6 at level 12 and +3d6 at level 20) and ignores damage reduction (+1 at level 4, +2 at 8, etc.) Not multiplied on criticals (incidentally, the claws crit only on a 20 for x2).

Demonic Resistance: At 5th level, gains fire/cold/elec resistance 5/- while in Demon Form.

Blurred Distinction: At 8th level, the boundaries between him and the Demon begin to blur together. His appearance begins to take on some of the Demon's traits (teeth, ears, markings etc.) The grants him half of his resistances and SR even when not in Demon Form. (At level 8, that's fire/cold/elec resist 2/-...yeah.)

Demonic Warding: At 10th level, he is able to use the Demon's natural resistances to protect himself more fully. Gains fire/cold/elec resist 10/- and SR equal to 4+his level.

Greater Demon Form: At 12th level, he is able to channel more of the Demon's power. Can choose to assume the Greater Form; this counts as two regular transformations, and each round counts double towards the limit per day. In Greater Demon Form, he gains +4 Str, +4 Con, +3 AC, wings (with a fly speed of 30 ft and good maneuverability), haste, and +2 to all saves. His claw attacks now do 1d8 damage. The save DC to retain control, however, is increased by 4, and it's that much more dangerous if he fails it.

So that's it. I'm worried that I'm too powerful and/or that I'll kill my party, but I've done the best to balance out his powers by restricting his weapons and armor (he says he uses daggers because a sword's heavy, and he doesn't feel like lifting all that weight during battles) and by putting the risk that he'll go berserk.

So what do you think? Overpowered? Over restricted? I like this guy and we're going to start playing soon, so feedback's appreciated!

This post has been edited by theshim: 20 November 2007 - 05:07 PM

[super sorcerer]

About the class:
1) On high levels the save is almist immposible. Lets assume a 20th level Demon Warrior have a cloack of resistance +5 , a wisdom score of 16 and base will save of +12 (I assume a Demon Warrior have a good will save though you should mention which good saves a class got). It means that the only chance to stay on controll on demonic form is getting a natural 20 on the will save, and that probably means that the party will be in a very big trouble.
2) You didn't mantion the saves, HD, BAB and skills of the Demon Warrior. it is realy hard to know if a character is ballanced without that information.
3) I think the best example for to test game ballance here is to compare the Demon warrior class to the Barbarian class. The barbarian have many abilities that work also outside their rages (DR , increased speed , uncanny dodge and so on) while the Demon warrior have very few abilities that work outside demonic form, but the demonic form bring more types of advantages and may be used more often (as well as have a risk using it).
4) There is a prestige class named "acolyte of the skin" (I hope I spelled it right) in the Complete Arcana which is a prestige class of spellcasters that combine themselves with demons, you may check for inspiration and Idea's.


As for the character that fight with daggers you may look at the Invisible Blade in the Complete Warrior, it is a prestige class who proffesionalize in fighting with daggers and no armor.

[theshim]

I think there's a bit of confusion here. I am NOT creating a new "Demon Warrior" class; I am playing a character with all this added on. He is a fighter, but THIS CHARACTER only uses daggers and light armor. That said, you made several very valid point, and on further discussion with DM, I've made some severe modifications to him: I've lowered the DC (especially since he's a fighter), changed the Charged Strike ability, removed the SR from Demonic Resistance and added Mindless instead, and added the Rage Speed ability.

So I had a character I was RPing in a MUD, and I wanted to make him a D&D character. I tried to keep him as much in spirit with the character I'd developed as possible, but with D&D stats and whatnot. So he ended up being a Fighter, but he uses dual daggers and light armor. In fact, he'd be good as a ranger, except he's more of a combat specialist and has no nature ties at all.

However, he's suffering from an ancestral curse. A Demon takes over the members of his clan when they become enraged. Due to some nifty plot, which I very much enjoyed writing, he was for the first time able to subdue the Rage Demon, and can assume Demon form...within limits.

Sooo...class abilities...I'll write it out like in the handbooks.

1: DC 11, Demon Form 1/day, Struggle for Control, Rage Demon
2: DC 12,
3: DC 13, Demon Form 2/day
4: DC 14, Charged Strike +1/+1d4
5: DC 15, Demon Form 3/day, Demonic Resistance, Rage Speed +5
6: DC 16
7: DC 17, Demon Form 4/day
8: DC 18, Charged Strike +2/+1d4, Blurred Distinction
9: DC 19, Demon Form 5/day
10: DC 20, Demonic Warding, Rage Speed +10
11: DC 21, Demon form 6/day
12: DC 22, Charged Strike +3/+2d4, Greater Demon Form
13: DC 23, Demon Form 7/day
14: DC 24
15: DC 25, Demon Form 8/day, Rage Speed +15
16: DC 26, Charged Strike +4/+2d4
17: DC 27, Demon Form 9/day
18: DC 28
19: DC 29, Demon form 10/day
20: DC 30, Charged Strike +5/+3d4, Rage Speed +20

Demon Form: When he assumes Demon Form, his appearance changes...mostly important are the pieces of armor that partially cover him, especially the gauntlets, which are used as long, slashing claws. In Demon Form he gains +2 Str, +2 Con, and +2 AC, as well as +1 to all saves. He can maintain this form for 4 rounds +1/2 levels. The claws do 1d6 (had it as 1d8, but that was way overpowered) damage and count as dual-wielded with a light off-hand weapon. After Demon Form he is winded like a Barbarian after raging (-2str, -2dex, can't run or charge) for the rest of the encounter.

Struggle for Control: When he assumes Demon Form, there is a chance that the Rage Demon will take control, at which point it will go into a killing frenzy of everything around it. The Will Save is listed above (10 + 1/level). Even once the Demon has control he continues to fight: it is checked for control each round, with each failed save lowering the DC by 1. Rounds when the Demon is in control are not counted towards the daily limit, but once the Demon is banished he cannot be called out again for the rest of the day (as the character won't try to take him on again).

Rage Demon: If the character ever goes well and truly berserk, and/or voluntarily gives himself over to the Demon, the Demon's full powers can be manifested. He gains +8 Str, +8 Con, +5 AC, wings (with a fly speed of 30 ft and good maneuverability), +4 to all saves, doubled resistances (if level 5 or higher), and SR 10+Level(if level 10 or higher). The claws now inflict 1d10 damage. Control is not checked for 1d6 rounds, and the DC is 10 + 1.5 times the level. The rage lasts until a successful save. NOTE THAT THIS CAN REALLY ONLY BE BROUGHT ABOUT BY DEUS EX MACHINA, AS HE WILL NEVER VOLUNTARILY GIVE HIMSELF OVER!

Charged Strike: The character manifests the Demon's power as energy around his attacks when in Demon Form. Deals extra damage (+1d4 at level 4, +2d4 at level 12 and +3d4 at level 20) and boosts attack by +1 for every 4 levels. The claws are treated as the attack bonus as far as bypassing damage reduction. Not multiplied on criticals (incidentally, the claws crit only on a 20 for x2).

Demonic Resistance: At 5th level, gains fire/cold/elec resistance 5/- while in Demon Form.

Rage Speed: At 5th level, begins to move faster when in Demon Form. Gains +5 ft/round speed, increasing at levels 10, 15 and 20 by a further 5.

Blurred Distinction: At 8th level, the boundaries between him and the Demon begin to blur together. His appearance begins to take on some of the Demon's traits (teeth, ears, markings etc.) The grants him half of his resistances, full Rage Speed, and (at level 10) +2 to saves vs. mind affecting spells even when not in Demon Form. (At level 8, that's fire/cold/elec resist 2/-...yeah.)

Demonic Warding: At 10th level, he is able to use the Demon's natural resistances to protect himself more fully. Gains fire/cold/elec resist 10/- and the mindless ability(immune to mind-affecting spells).

Greater Demon Form: At 12th level, he is able to channel more of the Demon's power. Can choose to assume the Greater Form; this counts as two regular transformations, and each round counts double towards the limit per day. In Greater Demon Form, he gains +4 Str, +4 Con, +3 AC, wings (with a fly speed of 30 ft and good maneuverability), and +2 to all saves. His claw attacks now do 1d8 damage. The save DC to retain control, however, is increased by 4, and it's that much more dangerous if he fails it.

This post has been edited by theshim: 29 November 2007 - 06:33 PM

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Firstly, going berserk is a moot point unless your DM is as sadistic as I tend to be. Thus it's not really a mitigating factor.

The demon form is basically a weak Rage with no drawbacks but a ton of extra daily uses. My only question si how long does it last?

Charged strike is kind of like a weak auto-sneak attack except that no one is immune to it. Incidentally, what type of damage does charged strike inflict?

Resistance is fairly inconsequential unless you're in a low-magic setting, so that's fine.

Blurred distinction is based on resistance, and thus not a huge deal, mechanics-wise.

Spell resistance is shiny. It's always shiny. It lets you avoid some of the most powerful effects in the game.

Greater demon form is significantly more shiny than the lessser version. Wings are a huge benefit and the AC boost is enough to be noticed. Again, how long does this last?

Assuming that demon form has a similar duration to Rage, I'd treat this like an aquired template and slap an LA on it upwards of +2 to +3. The SR and resistance alone justify a +1, as per Drow. Free rage ability without any drawbacks could easily be another +1 based on my experience with gestalt games. And getting a damage boost that cuts through magical DR is really nice, especially with the low damage from your claws.

Incidentally, there are no mechanical restrictions on your armor or weapon choices, so your self-imposed restrictions are not mitigating factors, either. That doesn't mean I wouldn't let you play this character; I'd just slap you with an LA and call it a day. As for the potential for TPK, it's pretty high if you roll poorly or your DM doesn't like your concept.

[theshim]

Why is going berserk moot? It's bad. As in, dead party bad. Or at least severe harm. Plus it also means he can't use it for the rest of the day. If he goes berserk on his first transformation of the day...

Quote

He can maintain this form for 4 rounds +1/2 levels.

Though I really should have added that the rounds need not be continuous. And at Greater Demon Form, each transformation and each round transformed count double towards his limit per day.

Charged strike would inflict energy damage...non-elemental. (I forget if there is an actual energy-type damage; if not, make it force-type, like Magic Missile.)

And did you read my revised post? Because I eliminated the SR except in full Rage Demon, which is DM ex Machina anyway. Now he gets Mindless, which is really shiny anyway, but not quite SR shiny.

Wings are quite nice, yes. But the AC is only one higher than regular...and the Will save starts out at 26 at level 12. On a Fighter's saves.

And you're contradicting yourself. At first you say the berserk is not a mitigating factor, but you later acknowledge that TPK is a high probability. If that ain't a drawback...

Fine, so if I were to make the weapon/armor limitations binding, it would be +1 at the most, yeah?

Thanks for the input!

[super sorcerer]

I would say it again: If you want to play a warrior who use light armor and daggers and still be equal to another fighter then you can use the Invisible Blade prestige class from the complete warrior. It will give you a fair warrior that can be as powerfull in melee as any fighter. I think it will be far easier than starting o think what is ballanced and what is unballanced about your anourmus change of the rules.

Now to decide wheater your character is ballanced let's compare your character to a barbarian (both human and both under rage).
Starting ability scores (for both) : str-15 dex-13 con-14 int-12 wis-10 cha-8
On 1st level:
Barbarian: feats-improved initiative, weapon focus(greataxe) equipment: greataxe, chain shirt
HP-16 attack- +6 damage- 1d12+6 (avarage-12.5) AC-13
Demon warrior: feats- inproved initiative, weapon focus (dagger), two weapon fighting. equipment: chain shirt (I assume you use claws)
HP-13 attacks- +3/+3 damage- 1d6+3 (avarage-6.5) AC-16
Here it is yet debatable wheater it is ballanced or not.

On 4th level: str-16 (from ability score increase)
Barbarian: feats: +power attack. equipment: chain shirt +1, greataxe+1
HP-47 attack- +10 damage- 1d12+8 (avarage-14.5) AC-14
Demon Warrior: feats: +power attack, +weapon focus (claws), +weapon speacialization (claws). equipment: chain shirt +1
HP-39 attacks- +10/+10 damage- 1d6+1d4+6 (avarage- 12) AC-17
I think that here the Demon Warrior is clearly superior.


You may continue this power comparing for latter levels if you like to see more results but I stopped at level 4 after a clear result of the comparison. Maybe it looks different on higher levels, Check for yourself.
Also note that a barbarian is fatigue for the rest of the encounter after his rage, maybe you should add something like that to your Demon warrior.

[theshim]

As nice as I'm sure the Invisible Blade is, I really would like to play this character.

Couple things: Since two-weapon fighting requires 15 Dex, his Strength would be 14 and Con 13...so 1 less hp/per level and at level 4 the Strength bonus is lower. And where the hell did you get +10/+10 at level 4? It'll be +7/+7 for 1d6+1d4+5=11 average, with substantially lower to hit. I don't think it's very superior...and keep in mind that this is only in Demon form, which he can't assume all the time. At said level 4 he can only do this 3 times per day, and while that's one more than the barbarian's rage, he con only do it for a maximum of 5 rounds total over the entire day. Plus, if he goes berserk once, that's it for the day. The rest of time he'll have:

HP 30 Attack +6/+5 (assuming one +1 dagger) Damage 1d4+5=7.5 average (I'd have given him weapon spec instead of power attack) AC17.
Compared to the Barbarian when not in Rage:
HP 39 Attack +9 Damage 1d12+5=11.5 average AC16.

The only edge the Demon Warrior has is the two attacks (which won't do much more than the Barbarian's better-to-hit one) and the AC. And the Barbarian a) crushes him on HP, and isn't going to go berserk on his allies.

And I can't believe I forgot to add that in! My DM and I agreed on a winded period like the Barbarian's rage for the Demon Warrior anyway, I'll edit the last post...

[super sorcerer]

Ok lets continue to level 12. I assume the barbarian have a greataxe+2 and the demon warrior have Amulet of the fist +2 , both wear a chain shirt +3 a ring of protection +2, an amulet of natural armor +2, gloves of dexterity+2 and a belt of giant streangth +2.
Under rage:
barbarian -
str-26 dex-15 con-20
feats: improved initiative, weapon focus (greataxe), power attack, cleave, great cleave and improved critical (greatsword).
hp-133 attacks- +23/+18/+13 damage- 1d12+14(20.5) AC-21
speed: 40 feet other abilities: improved uncanny dodge, damage reduction 2/-, trap sense +3

demon warrior -
str-22 dex-18 con-17
feats: improved initiative, weapon focus (claw), power attack, cleave, great cleave, improved critical (claw), two weapon fighting, weapon speacialization (claw), improved two weapon fighting, improved toughness, greater weapon focus (claw), greater weapon speacialization (claw) and weapon focus (dagger).
hp-109 attacks- +25/+25 damage- 1d8+2d4+12(21.5) AC-28
speed: 40 feet other abilities: resistance 10 to 4 energy types, ability to fly, immunity to mind affecting spells.

I think the demon warrior is clearly more powerfull here, the 2 later attacks of the barbarian have much less chance to hit so the demon warrior even inflict more damage, and of course he also make more damage on a charge on preapared attack action so it makes up for the lesser hit points, but don't forget he got AC higher by 7 which is a very big advantage.


[quote] And where the hell did you get +10/+10 at level 4? It'll be +7/+7 for 1d6+1d4+5=11 average, with substantially lower to hit. [/qoute]

BAB-4 str-3 (after the str reduction) weapon focus (claw)-1 Charged Strike-1 and it adds up to +9/+9 (which was 1 more on my calculations becouse I thoght he had more streangth). Don't forget the demon warrior have AC higher by 6 on level 4, the barbarian have -2 penalty the demon warrior have +2 bonus the barbarian have dex-13 the demon warrior have dex-16 so it adds up to a difference of 6. If you don't look at the AC difference it might seem ok but the difference is to big to ignore.


I also have a role play question:
If your character is not evil then why would he take the risk of being under the control of a demon just to get more power?
I think that he have a good alignment then it means he will never use his ability of rage, but I will be glad to read a good explanation for that.

[theshim]

super sorcerer, on Dec 5 2007, 12:31 PM, said:

Ok lets continue to level 12. I assume the barbarian have a greataxe+2 and the demon warrior have Amulet of the fist +2 , both wear a chain shirt +3 a ring of protection +2, an amulet of natural armor +2, gloves of dexterity+2 and a belt of giant streangth +2.
Under rage:
barbarian -
str-26 dex-15 con-20
feats: improved initiative, weapon focus (greataxe), power attack, cleave, great cleave and improved critical (greatsword).
hp-133 attacks- +23/+18/+13 damage- 1d12+14(20.5) AC-21
speed: 40 feet other abilities: improved uncanny dodge, damage reduction 2/-, trap sense +3

demon warrior -
str-22 dex-18 con-17
feats: improved initiative, weapon focus (claw), power attack, cleave, great cleave, improved critical (claw), two weapon fighting, weapon speacialization (claw), improved two weapon fighting, improved toughness, greater weapon focus (claw), greater weapon speacialization (claw) and weapon focus (dagger).
hp-109 attacks- +25/+25 damage- 1d8+2d4+12(21.5) AC-28
speed: 40 feet other abilities: resistance 10 to 4 energy types, ability to fly, immunity to mind affecting spells.

I think the demon warrior is clearly more powerfull here, the 2 later attacks of the barbarian have much less chance to hit so the demon warrior even inflict more damage, and of course he also make more damage on a charge on preapared attack action so it makes up for the lesser hit points, but don't forget he got AC higher by 7 which is a very big advantage.

Quote

And where the hell did you get +10/+10 at level 4? It'll be +7/+7 for 1d6+1d4+5=11 average, with substantially lower to hit.

BAB-4 str-3 (after the str reduction) weapon focus (claw)-1 Charged Strike-1 and it adds up to +9/+9 (which was 1 more on my calculations becouse I thoght he had more streangth). Don't forget the demon warrior have AC higher by 6 on level 4, the barbarian have -2 penalty the demon warrior have +2 bonus the barbarian have dex-13 the demon warrior have dex-16 so it adds up to a difference of 6. If you don't look at the AC difference it might seem ok but the difference is to big to ignore.
I also have a role play question:
If your character is not evil then why would he take the risk of being under the control of a demon just to get more power?
I think that he have a good alignment then it means he will never use his ability of rage, but I will be glad to read a good explanation for that.

First, even at lower levels, the Barb would use a breastplate, so the difference goes down by one.

Second, the Demon Warrior gets no benefit from an Amulet of Mighty Fists, as the claws count as weapons - they are not the Demon's claws, merely bladed extensions to the gauntlets.

So, assuming your Barb's calculations are correct: The Demon Warrior gets +12 BAB, +6 Str, +3 Charged Strike. +2 Focus, -2 for 2 weapons - you keep forgetting this! +21 attack, not +25. Damage is 1d8+2d4+10 = 19.5 main hand, 16.5 off. But keep in mind, this is only in Greater Demon mode - which has a will save DC 26 to start. Even with a Cloak of Resistance +3 and Iron Will, he still needs a 17 or better to make the save. It means he will rarely use this form, sticking to the less powerful form which loses the wings, cuts the damage down to 1d6 and -2 str and con...by this point, that AC bonus (which should be 5 at level 4 and 5 again at 12) and the resistances are his only true advantages.

And keep in mind he still needs a 13 to make the LOWER save.

Meaning he won't use it that often.

Meaning he'll be most of the time a weaker fighter with a bunch of wasted feats, since he won't be able to use his claws. I, personally, think it does balance out. Especially, as I said, if he goes berserk on the first save of the day. No more Demon that day! Instead you get:
Hp 83 Attack +17/+12/+7/+17/+12 for the daggers (assuming +2 daggers - +2 enhancement, +1 focus, +12 BAB, +4 Str, -2 2 weapons) Damage 1d4+8 average 10.5 AC 25
Compare to non-rage Barb:
Hp 120 (I think he should have another 24 hp in rage, not 13...) Attack +21/+16/+11 Damage 1d12+11 average 17.5 AC 24

Is that really unbalanced at all? Both have 40 ft. speed, the Barb has damage resist 2/- and improved uncanny dodge while the DW gets resistance 5 to the 4 types and +2 vs. mind-affecting spells.

As for why he rages...he believes the best way to fight the Demon is to confront him head-on. At the moment, his current quest is to find the Mirror of the Mind, which allows you to enter people's minds, so he can go into his own and fight the Demon face to face. Right now, this is as close as he can get.