[dragonhand777]

Twice in approxamitely a year, this subject came up in our group.

First it was over Search checks, now it's over Appraise checks.

I won the first argument (that players make their own Search checks) by quoting something from the PHB. I can't find what it was I quoted now. But my argument was based in the fact that when you search for something, you're actively looking for something specific and you know wheather you found it or not. (Of course, not finding it doesn't mean it's not there).

It is my impression that players make their own checks except under special circumstances when the player would not know the result.

I do not believe that appraising a sword, medallion, gem, etc. falls under a special circumstance. You either appraise it's value, and either your right or wrong. In the PHB it says that if you fail, the DM secretly rolls 2d6+3 x 10% and multiplies that % by the actual value, and then gives that result to the player. Now, considering that, I'm sure it was not intended for DMs to make the actual appraise roll.

I understand that under some circumstances a DM may need to make a Spot, or Listen, or a Sense Motive check for a player. Most skills that have these special circumstances will give an example under the heading Check in the skills description.

What are your thought on DMs making skill checks for players?

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

I just make the checks when I feel that they should be made by the GM. Otherwise, I will allow the player to make the check. It is all really up to what I think at the time that determines whether or not I make the check myself.

[Darius]

player's make their own roll's unless their possesed or otherwise not in control.

D

[ladyofdragons]

We do it as players making their own rolls unless they wouldn't know the outcome. For instance, hide in shadows, move silently and find/disable traps type rolls. You wouldn't know if you were really hiding in shadows or moving silently. You'd just think you were. Whoever you're trying to hide from might see or hear you anyway. So, those kinds of things the GM rolls.

As for appraise that might go either way. your GM might want to roll it and say, "well, you THINK it's worth 700GP." The reality of the situation is you missed the DC and don't really know. But if your group is good at roleplaying you might want to have the player roll it and realize they missed, and make the decision themselves as to whether they're going to guess wildly, bluff, or just say they don't know.

[WoeTheSinner]

Quote

We do it as players making their own rolls unless they wouldn't know the outcome. For instance, hide in shadows, move silently and find/disable traps type rolls. You wouldn't know if you were really hiding in shadows or moving silently. You'd just think you were. Whoever you're trying to hide from might see or hear you anyway. So, those kinds of things the GM rolls.

As far as the hiding/moving sielntly, I assume you mean from 2e where it was a %chance, since in 3.x its an opose spot/listen check so the player can roll and he/she should have an idea for about how well he/she is hidden, though they would not know how well whoever might be watching for them can spot. So basicaly the player still doesnt 'know' if they are hidden or not but they have an idea of how carefuly someone would have to look to find them. Or at least a general idea of how quietly they are moving.

Our fair Lady was bang on about the apraise. I think you have to pick one of the two ways of looking at it and be consistent. I prefer the character roling and having the option to lie/admit he doesnt know because thats how it works, sometimes you just dont know what something is worth. I see what your saying about what the DMG says, but I don't like it so I'm choosing to ignore it

[Rintaran]

In my campaign, the players do all their own rolls, even spot and listen. The DM also does his rolls in the open. That way, no one can fudge die rolls without EVERYONE knowing it. This will occasionally result in an outpouring of praise to the magnanimous DM (or repeated cursing for the "weighted" dice of the merciless DM). My players have the capability of keeping OOC information (like die rolls) seperate from IC information, so it isn't a problem. But it's different with every group.

[mipadi]

The PHB specifies that some rolls are supposed to be done by the DM.

In the games I play, the DM actually makes most of the rolls. For example, if a player rolls really low on a Search check, they can often make the assumption that they didn't find anything because they didn't search very well, not because there's nothing to find. The same goes for many other checks. I think it makes the game more fun not knowing why you failed, or how well you did something. It's more realistic.

[Silver tears]

Since I dmed mostly with the second it is normal to me to think that appraise should be done by the dm ....

In ADND it was Fail or Succeed.... so a player know at the moment if he get it or not ... and if what the dm says is real or not ...but with the DCs it might get a little better....

Also it goes in the same way as when a Dm always say :" the room is empty" and suddenly he says "The room looks empty" ...... it depends of the players ... if the players always jump on every opportunity of metagaming or not ....

[Shadowborn]

As a DM, I roll the following checks for my players:

Search
Spot
Listen
Appraise
Hide
Move Silently
Disable Device
Open Lock
and any saves for effects being attempted on a character when he/she is unaware

Seems to work well enough for my campaign. I'm also old school as far as my rolls go. They stay behind the GM screen (The "Shield of Fear and Ignorance, for all you KODT fans.)

[Egoslayer1]

I think a good rule of thumb is...I (the DM) rolls the checks for the players if knowing the result of the dice roll would affect thier actions innapropriately. For example, if they are walking down the hall and I ask only the elves to make spot checks, all the players are going to think "gee, there must be a secret door here" and then try and come up with excuses for why they would search all of a sudden. Or, if the characters are walking through a forest, and I ask one to make a WIL save, suddenly the group goes on high alert because they are being 'attacked'. Though under WIL saves it says a character knows he had to make a save even if there is no visible effect IF he succeeded the save. The implication there is if he failed he doesn't know he had to roll a save in the first place. Of course some times I ask for rolls that have no meaning, or ask for a roll way in advance of when I actually need it. Or ask for a roll from everybody, when really I only needed spot rolls from the elves. Whatever it takes to keep them on thier toes. IF letting them roll will give away information they shouldn't have and I can't find a way around that, then I'll roll for them, but I consider that as a last resort.

ES

[Jimp]

I do roughly the same as Egoslayer (welcome to the boards by the way ). I make checks like spot or listen for the players when telling them to roll it would notify them that something will happen so metagaming is kept down. Don't want everyone to roll their own listen checks, all fail and then some party member saying "Brace yourselves guys".
For things like search, sense motive and apraise I don't roll for the players nor do I tell them to roll. They're only used if the players themselves want to use them. Not my fault if they weren't checking for traps. . .

[Lyinginbedmon]

My problem is that whenever I make a roll personally they automatically assume that there's something terrible about to happen. So I mix up actual rolls with redundant ones to throw them off, and it's funny as heck watching their reactions

[Faradon]

Lyinginbedmon, on Jun 1 2005, 11:31 AM, said:

My problem is that whenever I make a roll personally they automatically assume that there's something terrible about to happen. So I mix up actual rolls with redundant ones to throw them off, and it's funny as heck watching their reactions

LOL, I do the same thing...

I let all my players make their own rolls, especially rolls that are contested (hide vs spot and move silently vs listen) If I had to make every roll for every player (usually 4-7) and every monster/NPC I'd just constantly be rolling dice all game.

I like to randomly say to the players "Everyone roll a listen check for me" or "Everyone make a spot check" just to watch who spends the next ten rounds casting spells, actively spotting, listening , or other such things... I don't usually prohibit the players from metagaming like that... I just remember who deserves the extra role playing xp at the end of an adventure and who doesn't and explain why when I do it so that players can learn.

-Faradon

[Dthclaw]

Good thing to do (that I didn't think of during school, unfortunately) is to grab everyone's modifiers for skills in a table so that you know what the total result is on their secret DM roll. Plus, that way you don't have to tip them off by asking for a particular skill.

[Gleddon]

I keep track of my players' search, spot, listen, and sense motive bonuses. Those are pretty much all that I roll for them, although I think I only roll the sense motives about half the time (they haven't come up as often as I would like).