[Raven Bloodmoon]

I hav ebeen thinking and come up with this conclusion regarding why multiclassing in 3.0e and 3.5e sucks. It is not wholely because you miss out on those shiny capstone abilities. It is more because those shiny capstone abilities are so much more powerful than anything you currently have or will attain through multiclassing. This led me to ask why.

It would seem that the rate of power increase is not linear across the levels. In other words, the increase in power from first to second level is not the same as from nineteenth to twentieth level within the same class. To make matters worse, and this is more a balancing issue, that rate of increase in power is not constant across classes at a given level either. Hence all of hte arguments, complaints, and general unhapiness about certain classes being broken. ~ccoughoughdruidmonkcough~

Now to further complicate matters, having a linear rate of power increase still does not fix things. That would mean that the difference in power between 1st adn 2nd level is smaller than between 19th and 20th level. What I suggest would be necessary to attain equality between multiclassing and dedication to a class is that the rate of increase in power across every level of every class be a constant. Thus, each class at each level gains the same amount of power not only as every other class at that level, but also as it gained at every previous level and will gain at any future level. Thus, a decision to multiblass may mean sacrificing a later class ability, but you will not be losing power for it.


Now the first thing this brought to my mind was, "Crap. That means no cool capstone abilities to work toward." While this is partially true, I think that it might be possible to use something much akin to the Dread Necromancer's setup, concept-wise, to attain this steady increase in power and still afford cool abilities. What the Dread Necromancer does, that is so annoying in standard DnD is that it's capstone ability nullifies half of the class' abilities and grants a minor ability. Perhaps a capstone ability could merely improve or build upon previos class abilities. Thus, at 20th level, you may gain a +8 to attack rolls with a weapon, but that does not stack with the previous +6 worth of AB from abilities you alrady have. This is a crude example.

The other thing I was thinking, though immensely annoying for bookkeeping purposes, woudl be that class dictates what abilities you can learn, but practicing the abilities makes them improve. Thus, your skill in your abilities counts more than which abilities you have. This is a rather radical and record-intensive approach to d20, however--not for the feint of heart.

Does anyone else have any thoughts or suggestins regarding multiclassing or perhaps how to even things out in such a way as to make it a viable, non-detrimental option?

[Dthclaw]

I think the real trick is going to be determining how to quantify what is 'constant' for ability progressions. The problem with abilities (and feats, even) is that to decide what is equal is to figure out how to compare apples to oranges to bananas to qumquats. I haven't quite figured that out yet (though dear god am I trying), but from what I can see that is the critical first step: what does equal and constant mean in this context?

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Well, cannon is that roughly a +1 to AB = +2 to save = +3 to skill = +4 to specific combat special attack/ability. But that doesn't necessarily mean much. Still, I think it is possible. It is ust a matter of setting up some standards.

I think one possible result of this would be that more than 20 levels would be necessary, considering that power scales at a nearly exponential rate it seems.

[Axel]

Or, y'know, 3. Or even 6. C'mon people, Generic and Modern classes! Can you beat that?

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Axel, on Sep 16 2007, 11:58 PM, said:

C'mon people, Generic and Modern classes! Can you beat that?

Yes. You can. With a stick.

Axel, on Sep 16 2007, 11:58 PM, said:

Or, y'know, 3. Or even 6.

Huh?

[Axel]

Generic. No capstone abilities, everything is done through feat trees. Saves, BAB, skills, and spells are the only variable between classes. Thus nothing is lost in multiclassing since there are no high level abilities on the line. Standard 20 level classes. Generic rules for many other reasons, but that one stands out in this subject.
Modern. The base classes are designed with 10 levels to ensure that players will move up to more specialized Advanced Classes, and their abilities aren't really worth pursuing the base class further than necessary to support advanced classes anyway.
Considering how ridiculous the standard power advancement grows even up to level 20, continuing it past that is inviting danger.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Well, with the exception of spellcasting, I'll agree with you. But even still, feat trees themselves are not equal in power. The reason they have trees like that is to balance out that inequity. Maybe this simply isn't doable within the framework of dnd.

[super sorcerer]

I think that the stantart sollution to the multiclass trouble is prestige classes. If you want a rouge/wizard then you create one and latter on take levels as mistic theurge or any other prestige class that involve arcane spellcasting and beeing sneaky, If you want an arcane/divine spellcaster then you will probably become a mistic theurge. A fighter/wizard become an eldritch knight, a fighter/cleric can become a war priest and so on. Even though wizard 3/cleric 3 is usualy less powerfull than most 6 level characters a wizard 3/cleric 3/mistic theurge 8 is about equal if not more powerfull than most 14th level characters.

Eventualy I think prestige classes are a good way to ballance multiclassing.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

While I see your point, it still doesn't solve the problem present in multiclassing as it is currently written. It is my belief that each time a player takes a new level, it should be just as effective to multiclass as it would be to continue as a single class PC. I'm hoping this issue has been dealt with well in 4e. Heck, I'm hoping that 4e solves a lot of hte problems we've discussd on these boards. Should be an interesting release regardless.

[super sorcerer]

From another point of view of this problem:
A monster with CR of 14 is equal to 2 monsters of CR 12, and that mean the characters of a 14th level party should also be twice tougher than a party of 12th level. It also means that a 14th level character should be 64 times tougher than a 2nd level party. The way the rules are now a wizars12/sorcerer2 have about the same abilities of a 12th level character and a 2nd level character which is much less than that of 2 12th level character which is the streangth of a 14th level character.
I think that the fact that a multiclass character have higher saves is a nice try to ballance it, but it is still not enough.

I also have a few examples of multiclassing that are not so bad (even without prestige classes):
paladin2/sorcerer - a nice multiclass that take 2 levels of caster level for BAB higher by 1 and saves way higher.
fighter/warlock - I tried it and it sinply work, I can't point out exactly how but if you take the combative invocation it comes out very well.
monk/fighter - take 2 or 4 levels as a monk and then continue as a fighter. The higher saves and arrow deflection ability make you a unique fighter, and you use a monk's weapon as your main weapon the furry of blows ability realy helps.