[Sitraahra]

if you don't already have boccobs blessed book and your gm is playing with the the standard 100gp per a page rule, or maybe he's just keeping track of your pages and you're running out of space, here's a clever use of a spell I thought was useless - a friend showed me it recently, and I just knew I had to share it

secret page is a 3rd level spell: its effects are permanent. With it, you can "alter the contents of a page so they appear to be something entirely different". in the text, this even mentions that it can "even be another spell". So take you full spellbook page and a spell you just successfully learned and put it right on tp with secret page. you can view the new spell, view the old spell with a code word, and then return the over page at will. The spell has components of powdered herring and willow essensce and doesn't seem to requir any inks, so I ppresume you simply get to mentally place the page, so there should be no cost.

as i right this, I even begin to wonder if you could simply continue casting on the same apge over and over

doesn anyone else have clever, non-situational, non-standard use of spells like this?

[Dthclaw]

Well, this is a nice way to make it look like you have an additional spell in your character's spellbook. But that's it.

Notice the exact phrasing of the text:

"Secret page alters the contents of a page so that they appear to be something entirely different. The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell."

Notice that is says 'appear.' Also notice that it says that the text of a spell can be changed to show another spell. It does not scribe something into a book. It does not act as a loophole in the inscribing rules. It does not change the actual contents of the text - it just makes it look different.

Sorry, but no loophole here.

[Sitraahra]

Dthclaw, on Aug 9 2007, 07:58 AM, said:

Well, this is a nice way to make it look like you have an additional spell in your character's spellbook. But that's it.

Notice the exact phrasing of the text:

"Secret page alters the contents of a page so that they appear to be something entirely different. The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell."

Notice that is says 'appear.' Also notice that it says that the text of a spell can be changed to show another spell. It does not scribe something into a book. It does not act as a loophole in the inscribing rules. It does not change the actual contents of the text - it just makes it look different.

Sorry, but no loophole here.

I see your point, but would have to disagree: the example the description of the spell uses is turning map into a treatise on burnishing ebony walking sticks - thats not something merely something to fool a cursory glance, but a complex essay. Additionally note that this is not an illusion spell that can be seen through via disbelief, but a transmutation spell. Perhaps the underlying nature of the page has not changed; much like with a polymorph self spell, you retain your true self, but your form - and the form this page takes - are real. I believe the use of 'appears' is a literal statment on how it looks, not a subtle suggestion that what you see is not real.

Now I further ask you, if the page does indeed change form, and that form can be of another spell, is there any reason you cannot study that spell, which of course is in your own arcane writings, for casting?

ultimatly, such a decision is up to your GM, and if they call BS, thats that, but i suspect a fair number will think its a clever idea I think it is, and allow it, though I suppose yuo could also ask WOTC how they feel

[Cuilean]

Sitraahra, on Aug 9 2007, 11:43 AM, said:

ultimatly, such a decision is up to your GM, and if they call BS, thats that, but i suspect a fair number will think its a clever idea I think it is, and allow it, though I suppose yuo could also ask WOTC how they feel

One of my house rules is that spells that say "permanent"... aren't. They're just really long lasting, to the tune of a day per level. This all goes back to the question of "Why do we have torches if a third-level bush mage can enchant a copper piece a day with Continual Flame?"

These spells can be *made* permanent... by using the Permanency spell. That puts the power range back into place.

[Dthclaw]

From the SRD:

Quote

Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

Quote

Replacing and Copying Spellbooks
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If she already has a particular spell prepared, she can write it directly into a new book at a cost of 100 gp per page (as noted in Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, above). The process wipes the prepared spell from her mind, just as casting it would. If she does not have the spell prepared, she can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.
Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.

Quote

Spell Selection and Preparation: Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, she chooses which spells to prepare. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that she has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells.

Consider this:

You have spell X prepared from your spellbook but now you want it to be spell Y. If you're a wizard, you have the above methods of adding spell Y to your repertoire. But you're trying to use the secret page spell to change X to Y.

A wizard would already have to know spell Y rather well to realistically duplicate its arcane text with secret page (if this doesn't seem reasonable to you, I don't know what to say that could possibly convince you of the logical fallacy of this 'trick'). But in order to know spell Y, they have to have been exposed to it on a long term basis from one of the following:

-They already know the spell (rendering the point of using secret page moot)
-They're borrowing someone else's spellbook (which entails its own fees, SLx50 gp at a minimum, and should a dispel magic ever hit the spellbook spell Y is lost along with the cost of the fees)
-They're copying a scroll in their possession (which, if copied, removes the spell from the scroll, and a scroll has its own costs, and should a dispel magic ever hit the spellbook spell Y is lost along with the cost of the scroll)
-They have someone else's spellbook (which, again, renders secret page moot as they can just keep the spellbook for their own use)

This is just basic logic and basic rules. No intricate rulings, no preferences involved - just applying a little logic to the hypothesis using known information and rules.

[Lyinginbedmon]

I've always considered Secret Page to be more of a Chekhov Gun than an abusable spell. I mean, sure you can write a secret message to a fellow inmate in the next cell, but how do you get it to them and let them know the code word without the Guards knowing what's up? It's much more a DM spell, like filling a seemingly unimportant ancient tome with useful information that you need a plethora of passwords to decode.

[Rintaran]

Having gone through university and studied literature extensively, I'm going to have to side with Dth on this on. If anything, anywhere, ever says that it "appears to be" that means that it isn't. The same works for anything that "seems to be". If everything "appears" alright, or "seems" normal, guaranteed, something's amiss.

The same as with this spell. It makes it appear as though a different spell is written upon that page, but the different spell isn't actually there. Additionally, I'm betting a wizard/rogue could probably detect the false spell as a forgery. Likely some of the incantations would be incorrect, sigils, symbols and actions out of place, etc.

You are correct though, this is a decision for the GM herself. But don't be surprised if that GM goes evil and puts a symbol of pain or death somewhere on a tome...

Additionally, having written numerous complex essays, I can guarantee that it's easier to write enough BS to make someone think you're saying something (like a treatise on burnishing ebony walking sticks, or say, the origins of magic within <insert campaign setting here>) without actually saying anything useful. No one in their right mind would read that whole essay, only scan the first little bit, say meh, and then move on. But people naturally have a habit of studying maps, even when they're seemingly unimportant (PCs even more than the average human).

[Sitraahra]

Dthclaw, on Aug 9 2007, 10:15 AM, said:

From the SRD:
Consider this:

You have spell X prepared from your spellbook but now you want it to be spell Y. If you're a wizard, you have the above methods of adding spell Y to your repertoire. But you're trying to use the secret page spell to change X to Y.

A wizard would already have to know spell Y rather well to realistically duplicate its arcane text with secret page (if this doesn't seem reasonable to you, I don't know what to say that could possibly convince you of the logical fallacy of this 'trick'). But in order to know spell Y, they have to have been exposed to it on a long term basis from one of the following:

-They already know the spell (rendering the point of using secret page moot)
-They're borrowing someone else's spellbook (which entails its own fees, SLx50 gp at a minimum, and should a dispel magic ever hit the spellbook spell Y is lost along with the cost of the fees)
-They're copying a scroll in their possession (which, if copied, removes the spell from the scroll, and a scroll has its own costs, and should a dispel magic ever hit the spellbook spell Y is lost along with the cost of the scroll)
-They have someone else's spellbook (which, again, renders secret page moot as they can just keep the spellbook for their own use)

This is just basic logic and basic rules. No intricate rulings, no preferences involved - just applying a little logic to the hypothesis using known information and rules.

I totally agree that you have to already know the spell - i'm not suggesting this is a method of getting a spell you don't know

you're right, the book is lso vulnerable to dispel et al, as well, which i admit I knew, but I wasn't seriousy considering; a targeted dispel would destroy your secret page spellbook, though a area dispel would only get one at worst [which would still suck] or some random other spell you have going

I see a couple possibilities in the rules as posted:

1) after successfully translating a spell you want put in, memorize it first, then get to automaticallyy place it in the spellbook with with secret page

2) borrowing or copying a spellbook does not always cost money: in game there might be trades of spells done, magic books you could find, make secret pages of, then sell, etc

3) if you do purchase a scroll or pay to copy a book, its STILL worth it to secret page it into your book [once again, assumes you have DM permission] because it avoids the writing cost. Additioanlly, ahving a temporary copy vs a permanment copy you can study is generally worth it. Additionally, even if you are to pay the cost of transcribing the spell, it could still be worth it so you do not have to buy another spellbook

4) there is evidence that its not special inks or the like: when you gain your lv spells and when duplicating a spell book, costs are none and half respectivly


I admit doing this has its weaknesses, just as useing secret chest as opposed to buying a bag of holding has its weaknesses, but there are other advantages to it, ie money, if you want to take that chance


lastly, I would direct your genltemens attention back to the definition of transmutation spell as taken from the players book: Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition

despite appearences, this is a transmutation spell, not illusion, so the result should be a real, readabe page, not something that can be seen through

while writing a great deal of BS might be easier, my point of exact information, REAL words, still stands, and if you're a wizard useing the secret page to place a spell in your sepllbook, you're not going to choose to have it be gobbldygook

as for the wizard rogue...rogues can't detect it, as its not a trap, yes it detects as lightly magical, you can also use a combination of trueseeing and comprehend languages to see through it...but this case, thats all ilrelevent, since the purpose of this use is that you're not hiding a spell, you doubling it up for your own use

This post has been edited by Sitraahra: 09 August 2007 - 11:30 PM

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Let's follow a logical train of thought for a moment. Books work by reading them. Reading a spellbook is no different. You see words on a page and decipher them in your brain. Appearance refers to the way you percieve something visually. So if I pick up a copy of Tale of Two Cities, chances are that the first two sentences will appear to be, "It was the best of times. It was the worst of time." Same for a recipe book. It could appear say, "Add two pounds of lobster."

If I change this appearance so that different words or symbols are read, Tale of Two Cities could appear to open with the phrase, "A Bishop, a King, and Marie Antounette walk into a bar...." I'm not going to read, "It was the best of times. It was the worst of time." I'll reaed, "A Bishop, a King, and Marie Antounette walk into a bar...." That is not how the book actually opens. It only appears to open that way because of a spell. Regardless, I acquire the knowledge that a bishop, a king, and Marie Antounette have walked into a bar.

Spellbooks are not magic items, last time I checked, so unless WotC decided to change that in one of their drow books, which I happen to be boycotting, a spellbook does not function by jamming the spell into your brain via psionics or magic. You just read your notes on how to cast a spell. That requires sight (see paragraph one). Once you have read what appears on the page, you process it into your short term memory so you can cast it later (I'm not even touching that one with a 10-ft. pole). If someone other than you were to change what words appear on the page so that a different spell appeared, it is reasonable to assume you'd just end up preparing a different spell than was originally written down. This is how erasers and pencils work.

Secret page is just a magical erasor and pencil that lets you "undo" your edit with a code word. Irregardless of what is actaully on the page, a new spell appears on the page, and thus if you can understand the writings, you can read the spell. And if you can read the spell, you can prepare the spell. By now, we should all realize that Wizo doesn't always think through everything they publish. This loophole shouldn't come as a surprise.