[Axel]

Wait, so when a person gains a level in a class they are already in they can suddenly become involved a class inwhich they have no experience? That doesn't make any sense at all. And then these two supposedly independent classes advance at the same time and you can choose which to level up even though they should have been working seperately? That doesn't make any sense at all. Fortunately I'm not just here to complain, here's the solution:

How multiclassing works: To take on a second class a character must wait until their next level. When they have enough experience to gain their next level they announce their intention to take on a second class, in doing so they take on the second class at level 0 (-1,000 exp). They gain a level in their original class despite doing this. They must find an instructor in their chosen class and train. When he reaches level 1 in his new class the character is considered to be a multiclass character. A character may take on a third class in this manner, but no more than three classes.
Experience: A multiclass character must evenly distribute experience between his two classes, which keep separate experience. A DM may, at his discretion, decide to award specific experience to a certain class, for certain accomplishments.
Level: Character level is the total level of the character. It derives from overall XP earned and is used to determine when feats and ability score boosts are gained. Class level is the level of the character in a particular class, as per the individual class tables. For a single-class character, character level equals class level.
Hit Dice: The character gains Hit Dice from each class, with the resulting hit points added together.
Base Attack Bonus: Add the base attack bonuses for each class to get the character’s base attack bonus, if the resulting value is +6 or higher, the character gets multiple attacks.
Saving Throws: Add the base save bonuses for each class together.

[BrotherMouran]

An interesting bastardization of 1e/2e multiclassing with 3.5.

The Level, Hit Dice, Base Attack Bonus and Saving Throws are all stock 3.5.

The splitting of experience is a 1e/2e convention; my guess is they dropped this idea for the sake of simplifying the tracking of experience. Splitting the experience between the two classes may be slightly more realistic, but is still in imperfect way of doing it. To really do it right, a DM would need to determine specifically, for each activity that would result in experience, which class deserved the exp for said action (or if it genuinely was earned by both classes.). I don't think I know of any DM who'd want to take on that chore, though.

The concept of having to find an instructor and starting with a 0 level is interesting. My personal preference for any character is to do it via role playing. If someone is planning on taking on an additional class, they need to inform me well before they take the class and then show, in-game, the efforts they are making to learn it.

I had a cleric who had decided he wanted to add a level of fighter. For the next level or so he made a point of watching the fighters in the group in action... questioning the fighters about their techniques and engaging in some training with them... made efforts to practice those techniques, including using the appropriate weapons (including the non-weapon proficiencies involved) in actual combats... and when he had the experience and was in a town when the group had some down time he sought out a fighter's guild to recieve formal training before finally taking that first level in fighter. To me, that's much more fun... to each his own.

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

I would have to agree with BrotherMouran about roleplaying to gain the multiclass level. It just doesn't make sense to me that a person would automatically go from Sorcerer to Barbarian without the character actively persuing it.

[dragonhand777]

*ahem* *ahem*

gesalt.

it makes sense.

As far as picking up levels in another class, after you've already started, I agree with BrotherMouran. But you can still do it gesalt style.

When it comes to starting out as a multiclassed charater, gesalt works great. I think most players are going to use which ever abilities (they have at their disposal) that fit the situation. Then it's only proper, that when they level up they get the abilities of each class at the same time. I also feel that this is more realistic.

[Axel]

Actually BrotherMouran, I split the experience as I go along. I award experience during play, just after the action. I award experience for any class action, such as casting a spell or picking someone's pockets. I split combat experience between classes, at a 4:3 ratio if they took a warrior class. This keeps things reasonably simple and yet realistic enough to make it preferable to the standard system.

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

I still don't see how this would be preferrable to the standard system used in 3.5. It just looks like 2nd edition, which I didn't like as much as the 3.5 system of multiclass.

[blacxthornE]

3.5e might need some more realistic multiclassing features, but I don't think these are it. 3.5e has more realistic features than what's been suggested here.

Personal opinion though.

[Axel]

How is the existing system more realistic? It simply allows players to make an entirely metagame desicion when leveling up rather than taking into account what classes they have and what they've done in each class.

[BrotherMouran]

Axel, on Jun 19 2004, 11:03 AM, said:

Actually BrotherMouran, I split the experience as I go along. I award experience during play, just after the action. I award experience for any class action, such as casting a spell or picking someone's pockets. I split combat experience between classes, at a 4:3 ratio if they took a warrior class. This keeps things reasonably simple and yet realistic enough to make it preferable to the standard system.

Splitting experience during the game is not something I'm ever going to do. When I have my players around the table, we want to roleplay and get on with the adventure, not wait for me to sit with a calculator and figure out experience all the time. If it works for you, great! It won't happen at my table, though.

I'd just as soon focus on playing and crafting an excellent adventure for my players and not let the rules or experience bog things down. With good roleplaying (and players who understand that) the 'realism' flaws with the system aren't there.

[Rintaran]

What I've always done when anyone's wanted to multiclass was force them to train into the class. This costs a good chunk of money, and they need to actually find someone to train them. Then, when they go up their next level, they need to prove to me why they deserve their level in wizard or whatever. There are a few classes that I only allow people to start with, no multiclassing into them: Psion, Psychic Warrior, and Sorceror. Depending on the class they want to take on, their character could be out of action for months, leaving the other characters time to continue their quest without him. I keep careful track of time in my campaign, so anytime someone decides to multiclass, they know that they may as well take the next session off. It often costs them an extra level because of the training involved in taking up a new class.

I've looked at your new multiclass attempt Axel, and though I'm don't particularly care for it, I don't absolutely hate it either. I do have a question though.

Quote

Experience: A multiclass character must evenly distribute experience between his two classes, which keep separate experience. A DM may, at his discretion, decide to award specific experience to a certain class, for certain accomplishments.

Ok, this is where my question originates. Since each class keeps seperate experience, when someone multiclasses, what does their new class start off with for XP? If they start back off with 0, they're going to go up levels in that new class quite quickly. If they start at the same number as their previous class, then both classes are going to advance slower than usual, allowing other characters to become more powerful, faster, even though there would be a sudden 2-level jump every now and again. Please explain, I am anxious to know the exact method, to know whether I should condemn it completely or only as not fit for campaigns that I run.

[blacxthornE]

Axel, on Jun 21 2004, 10:19 PM, said:

How is the existing system more realistic? It simply allows players to make an entirely metagame desicion when leveling up rather than taking into account what classes they have and what they've done in each class.

Chill. Can't you read? I said "personal opinion". You remember your post about not making apologies about them (though no one asked)? No problem then.

These decisions aren't metagame unless you think so (that's the idea of personal opinions). A person not necessarily uses his professions and/or classes or whatever evenly at every situation. If you are a doctor and engineer, you may choose to train on engineering through the next year, and promote in that area. You do not necessarily gain experience in medicine if you do not choose to.

I think experience could be split, and rarely, if the situation is very appropriate. A paladin/wizard healing an npc as a part of a quest -if the DM rules he gains experience from it- could gain the experience only as a paladin, again, if the DM thinks it would be appropriate.

However, letting the player choose the fate of his/her own PC is always better for the player-DM relation, and thus, for the game.

[Axel]

BM: Can't you just work out xp in your head? This isn't calculus, its simple arithmetic. It should only require a few seconds and something to jot down the conclusion on. If you have an experience chart handy you shouldn't even need to do that much! If you're really that bad at math, why don't you just keep an xp log around and jot down what every character does?

blacxthornE: You gain experience by performing class related actions. It only makes sense that if you perform an action exclusive to one class then only that class gains experience. In effect the player chooses which class to level up in while he is playing. The class he uses more levels up faster.

Rintaran: the new class starts at level 1, 0xp. It only makes sense that way.

[WoeTheSinner]

as in almost ever DnD "rule flaw" the solution is the DM and the players. One of the very first things the players handbook states is that the DM reserves the right to change anything he or she darn well wants to. In my opinion the best way to deal witht he multiclass issue is role playeing, as others have stated. If my lvl 12 sorc wants to be a cleric thats fine, he needs to find a church and get some tarining and so forth. The xp required to reach lvl 13 should be the same...otherwise you get into balance issues which do not need to be discussed. If you need an in game explanation for this here it is, your character has been working solely on sorcery for the last X years, you are set in your ways, its hard for you to grasp the concepts of this new cleric thing, therefore you need allot more practice.

Woe
Remember its only a game...or is it?!

[BrotherMouran]

Axel, on Jun 28 2004, 09:12 AM, said:

BM: Can't you just work out xp in your head? This isn't calculus, its simple arithmetic. It should only require a few seconds and something to jot down the conclusion on. If you have an experience chart handy you shouldn't even need to do that much! If you're really that bad at math, why don't you just keep an xp log around and jot down what every character does?

I've got no problem with math... but there's tons of things I give experience for. I'd rather just keep my notes of what happens as well as have my players keep notes on what they've done (which they then turn in to me at the end of the session). That way, I can take my time and dispense a proper experience value. Formulas and charts work fine for things like combat but roleplaying exp is a very subjective thing.

Besides, why do the players need to recieve their experience immediately? It's not like they are going to level up in the middle of an adventure just because they happen to get just enough experience for it. And, like I said, I prefer to keep my games moving and have enough details that I need to tend to that really make doing experience on the spot unnecessary.

[ladyofdragons]

I agree with BM, I'd rather go up levels in between gaming sessions than in the middle. As a GM, I don't want anyone sitting there looking up what new feat they want when they should be roleplaying in character. Since our games are much more roleplay than roll-play, RP experience can be a great factor in the amount of experience you earn.