[Dthclaw]

Okay, so, for anyone that has been following the development (or lack thereof) of the Teltesh cosmology, you'll notice that I've been tossing around the name 'Totia' to refer to Outsiders, both native and... err... otherwise? Point is, there are a number of new outsider races (mid-range ECL) that I've developed a need to flesh out (since they now have, you know, names, general descriptions, home planes, etc...).

So... I'm hoping to get some thoughts and ideas on my new low to mid-ECL outsiders. The ones I can remember off the top of my head:

Cruzka - humanoid shaped creatures reminiscent of the Darugon (dragon-type humanoid-shaped base race) heavily influenced by the Efreeti and Devils; for-certain traits include fire immunity and at least one natural weapon (tail-blade).

Sonu - relatively humanoid creatures reminiscent of a reflective, silver-skinned cross between a dragon and an angel; for-certain traits include extreme resistance/immunity to most desert conditions and the like

Dososk - relatively humanoid but insectile creatures resembling a four-winged Elf (can't remember the name); no certain traits yet

Ciadean - outsiders stuck between the Cruzka, devils, and temporal storms converging from the nearby planes; no certain traits yet

Murkfae - ooze-like outsiders that can take a Drow-like form but usually more ooze/plant like... Swamp-Thing, sorta, maybe, hell if I know; no certain traits yet

Prota - shapechangers heavily related to chaos; for-certain traits include ability to merge with substances and/or objects

I'm aiming for all these races to be in the ECL 5-9 range (so that they're -1- playable and -2- easily customized as NPC's with class levels to fill the rest of the CR spectrum), with some of that being outsider HD. Any thoughts on where to go from here would be awesome.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Sounds pretty cool. I know I'll have some ideas once I wake up, but I'm not sure I remember where I left my bed, I'm so tired right now. I'll pst again in several hours.

[Dthclaw]

Okay.

I know I want to keep what seems to be the standard 55/45 split between racial HD and LA, but beyond that I'm not sure how powerful to make them and what exotic abilities to give them - I want them to have the Native sub-type but make them substantially more powerful than Material Native outsiders.

[Elmorwen]

Why give them the native subtype? Any outsider gains the native subtype on its home plane, and any creature has the extraplanar subtype when it's off its home plane. Giving an outsider the native subtype in the default listing implies that they're native to the Material.

At least, I'm fairly certain that's how it works.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

An idea for the murkfae is to give them the ability to squish themselves through any hole at least an inch wide, albeit slowly. Sort of like just going ooze and then squirting through. It would lend a certain sense of creepiness to them.

Cruzka might be able to engulf themselves in a halo of fire, a la the balor, but less the insane terror those produce. Or perhaps their touch ignites flammible objects, whether they like it or not.

Sonu might have an aura of endure elements that protects not only themselves but other creatures within range. Could also possibly create water at will (but beware the Axel-trap). Probably has permanent tongues happenning.

Bugelf - Looks like a pointy-eared mosquito that sucks the blood of dwarves and other "lesser species."

Prota - Perhaps they have some sort of mind control abilities to go with their merging? Or perhaps they can animate objects they merge with?

[Dthclaw]

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Why give them the native subtype? Any outsider gains the native subtype on its home plane, and any creature has the extraplanar subtype when it's off its home plane. Giving an outsider the native subtype in the default listing implies that they're native to the Material.

At least, I'm fairly certain that's how it works.

The exact text from the SRD is as follows -

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Native Subtype: A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

I realize that the Native sub-type as written is supposed to apply strictly to Material Plane-native outsiders... but what about minor outsiders not from the Material Plane? Surely not all of them are so closely tied to the material of their home plane that they need not eat and sleep and cannot be brought back from the dead by normal means.

I guess what we need is some sort of in-between sub-type for lesser outsiders that aren't native to the material plane but aren't like the other outsiders :/

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An idea for the murkfae is to give them the ability to squish themselves through any hole at least an inch wide, albeit slowly. Sort of like just going ooze and then squirting through. It would lend a certain sense of creepiness to them.

That... yeah, that would be creepy. It would kind of be fitting for them, though, since they're kinda like wardens of their swampy-boggy home-plane.

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Cruzka might be able to engulf themselves in a halo of fire, a la the balor, but less the insane terror those produce. Or perhaps their touch ignites flammible objects, whether they like it or not.

The fire halo seems a bit much (they're one of the races I want towards the 5-ish range), but maybe giving them a lesser version of the fire elemental's burn...?

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Sonu might have an aura of endure elements that protects not only themselves but other creatures within range. Could also possibly create water at will (but beware the Axel-trap). Probably has permanent tongues happenning.

Oooh... I like the Aura of Endurance thing. I'll probably have them be true outsiders, given their homeplane's conditions and their powerful nature (the Sonu being at the upper end of the target range), so probably no water-related abilities, but permanent tongues or telepathy seems reasonable enough (neither of those two exactly show-stopper abilities).

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Bugelf - Looks like a pointy-eared mosquito that sucks the blood of dwarves and other "lesser species."

Uh... no, I was thinking of something substantially less vampiric and a good deal more friendly.

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Prota - Perhaps they have some sort of mind control abilities to go with their merging? Or perhaps they can animate objects they merge with?

I think mind-control would be a bit much for a 5-9 range, but letting them animate objects they're inhabiting would be cool.

[Elmorwen]

Dthclaw, on Aug 1 2007, 10:17 PM, said:

The exact text from the SRD is as follows -
I realize that the Native sub-type as written is supposed to apply strictly to Material Plane-native outsiders... but what about minor outsiders not from the Material Plane? Surely not all of them are so closely tied to the material of their home plane that they need not eat and sleep and cannot be brought back from the dead by normal means.

Bah. It's always seemed ridiculous to me that outsiders don't need to eat or sleep and can use all simple and martial weapons and see perfectly in total darkness simply by virtue of their type. Actually I think it's ridiculous for any type to automatically grant weapon proficiencies. Rules as written, a planetouched born and raised in a tiny rural village who's never seen a greatsword in his life can use it just as well as someone who had to take a feat or a certain class to use it.

You're right - there should be something between native outsider and a full blown demon or angel. I suppose this whole issue is why they made the Githyanki/zeri extraplanar humanoids in 3.5. It's worth noting, I think, that in Planescape the heavily aligned outsiders - meaning celestials, fiends, modrons, and slaadi, possibly others - were reffered to as "Exemplars." I don't know whether this translated to an actual mechanical difference, though.

I'm... not being very helpful, am I?

H'okay, then. I think the bug-elves (Dososk, according to the document you sent us) should look sort of like dragonflies. They could have segmented eyes and perfect flying maneuverability.

You could give the Cruzka a heat ability similar to salamanders.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Perhaps yoru darliks could perfect maneuverability and limited vermin traits, such as 50% chance to ignore critical hits, and the like. Also, if they have bug-vision, they should get a bonus to spot checks or some ability to avoid being flanked.

The Cruzka could do with a bit of Burninating. Or something that could prove disasterous would be if they can convert fire damage to healing at a reduced rate. Say for every 5 points of fire damage, they heal 1 point of damage to themselves. But that would mean they can't have a fire attack unless you want a race with free healing.

For the prota, why not do somethign similar to the Possession rules in Book Of Vile Darkness (aside from their eneral suckiness) but lacking the control aspect? Could merge with anything and animate objects or just sort of ride along with a host / help a host / hinder a host. Not as crazy as possessing and controlling the host, though.

[Dthclaw]

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You're right - there should be something between native outsider and a full blown demon or angel. I suppose this whole issue is why they made the Githyanki/zeri extraplanar humanoids in 3.5. It's worth noting, I think, that in Planescape the heavily aligned outsiders - meaning celestials, fiends, modrons, and slaadi, possibly others - were reffered to as "Exemplars." I don't know whether this translated to an actual mechanical difference, though.

I'm... not being very helpful, am I?

This actually got me to thinking (so, yes, actually quite helpful though perhaps a tad dangerous) about what to do with clarifying outsiders some.

I'm thinking that maybe instead of cutting outsiders into regular outsiders and native outsiders, there should be three grades with their own sub-type: least, lesser, and greater. The standard outsider traits would be trimmed down, and then the respective sub-type would layer none to all of the cut traits back on. Would get rid of the frankly silly Native sub-type (which honestly I think does more confusion than good in its existence). Your standard planetouched type outsiders (and the 1 HD outer-plane outsiders) would all be of least grade, and would be little more than humanoids with a different type. The outsiders with HD but not iconically linked to myth (most of the races above, for example) would be lesser outsiders. Your powerful, really mythic outsiders with lots of abilities - devils, demons, angels, what-have-you - would be the greater outsiders.

Sigh... one more thing to stuff somewhere in the races section.

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H'okay, then. I think the bug-elves (Dososk, according to the document you sent us) should look sort of like dragonflies. They could have segmented eyes and perfect flying maneuverability.

You could give the Cruzka a heat ability similar to salamanders.

Ooh, good ideas on both accounts. Perfect maneuverability is a nice trait, as is augmented vision. Maybe just make the bug thing complete and give them four arms to top it all off? Dososk... I'll have to edit my prior posts...

The heat ability of salamanders as-written might be a bit much for the Cruzka as just a touch thing... but maybe if it were a version that applied the fire damage to its natural weapons? Their skin acting as some sort of insulation against the heat in their bones, which lets them touch things but leaves their claws/teeth/tail blade/horns white-hot to the touch?

Raven Bloodmoon, on Aug 2 2007, 07:27 AM, said:

Perhaps yoru darliks could perfect maneuverability and limited vermin traits, such as 50% chance to ignore critical hits, and the like. Also, if they have bug-vision, they should get a bonus to spot checks or some ability to avoid being flanked.

The Cruzka could do with a bit of Burninating. Or something that could prove disasterous would be if they can convert fire damage to healing at a reduced rate. Say for every 5 points of fire damage, they heal 1 point of damage to themselves. But that would mean they can't have a fire attack unless you want a race with free healing.

For the prota, why not do somethign similar to the Possession rules in Book Of Vile Darkness (aside from their eneral suckiness) but lacking the control aspect? Could merge with anything and animate objects or just sort of ride along with a host / help a host / hinder a host. Not as crazy as possessing and controlling the host, though.

Yeah, the Dososk could use some vermin traits, but fortification? That's not in the vermin type. Maybe let them choose a single racial vermin-like trait (webs, all-around vision, climb speed, poison, the like) as part of their creation?

As for the Cruzka... maybe some sort of healing capacity submerged in lava or similarly hot material? Would limit the potential for abuse but be kinda cool.

I don't know about allowing the Prota to functionally act as a boon/hindrance for other characters, though maybe letting them go along for the ride would be okay.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Dthclaw, on Aug 2 2007, 08:44 AM, said:

Yeah, the Dososk could use some vermin traits, but fortification? That's not in the vermin type. Maybe let them choose a single racial vermin-like trait (webs, all-around vision, climb speed, poison, the like) as part of their creation?

I may be tired, but I thought the Verimn type granted immunity to critical hits. Fortification would just be a lesser version of that. Or so my thinking went...

[Dthclaw]

Raven Bloodmoon, on Aug 2 2007, 07:47 AM, said:

I may be tired, but I thought the Verimn type granted immunity to critical hits. Fortification would just be a lesser version of that. Or so my thinking went...

The exact text -

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Features
Vermin have the following features.

8-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (as cleric).
Good Fortitude saves.
Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the vermin has an Intelligence score. However, most vermin are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.
Traits
Vermin possess the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Proficient with their natural weapons only.
Proficient with no armor.
Vermin breathe, eat, and sleep.

So, no, they have no type-based fortification or crit-immunity. IIRC that was an optional thing somewhere to make vermin more intimidating... UA or one of the Monster Manuals, perhaps.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Oh well. Guess I am tired. But I still hold that they should at least have soem anti-flanking measure from their bugeyes.

[Dthclaw]

Okay, before going too much further, maybe pin down what the divisions should be between least, lesser, and greater outsiders.

The d20 SRD text for the Outsider type is -

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Outsider Type
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.

Features
An outsider has the following features.

8-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits
An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.

So I'm thinking that the basic outsider traits and type should be broken down as follows:

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An outsider has the following features.

8-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.

Traits

Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Proficient with natural weapons only.
Not profienct with any armor.
Outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.

Least outsiders gain no additional traits. The spectacular benefits of the outsider type (BAB, saves, and skills) don't come into play because all Least outsiders don't have racial HD. By removing automatic armor and weapon proficiencies, they enjoy an advantage over basic Humanoids but not as extreme a one. So the Least subtype would read something like:

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Least Subtype: This sub-type can only be applied to outsiders with 1 racial HD that is lost upon gaining a character level. A Least outsider gains all the normal traits for an Outsider, including darkvision. Least outsiders are mortal.

Lesser outsiders gain some of the added benefits of being an outsider. Probably limited to simple weapon proficiency and reducing the need for sleeping and eating. They get to enjoy having racial Outsider HD, which is in and of itself a substantial boon. So the Lesser subtype would read something like:

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Lesser Subtype: This sub-type can only be applied to outsiders with more than 1 racial HD that does not also possess an alignment sub-type or racial outsider sub-type such as the angel or archon sub-types. A Lesser outsider gains all the normal traits for an outsider, and also gains proficiency with simple weapons. Lesser outsiders eat half as much as a normal creature of their size, and need only sleep for 4 hours every day.

Greater outsiders are the big tamales, gaining the full normal outsider traits. So the Greater sub-type would read something like:

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Greater Subtype: This sub-type can only be applied to outsiders with more than 1 racial HD and which possesses an alignment sub-type or racial outsider sub-type such as the angel or archon sub-types. A Greater outsider gains all the normal traits for an outsider, and also gains proficiency with simple and martial weapons. Greater outsiders whose basic racial entry - unmodified by class levels or acquired feats - indicates a form of armor grants that outsider proficiency with that type of armor (light, medium, and/or heavy) and lighter types. If the basic racial entry does not indicate armor, the Greater outsider is not automatically proficient with armor. Greater outsiders do not need to eat or sleep (though they can if they desire). A Greater outsider does not have a dual-nature like other living creatures - if slain, a Greater outsider cannot be brought back to life with raise dead, reincarnate, or resurrection. A limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection spell is required to bring a Greater outsider back to life. Unless noted otherwise, a Greater outsider is immortal and immune to aging attacks.

Maybe allow some sort of prestige class or something that allows Least and Lesser outsiders to work their way up to Greaters?

Thoughts?

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Why not just make a second subtype for outsiders that is like Transient or something more fitting that does the "A Lesser outsider gains all the normal traits for an outsider, and also gains proficiency with simple weapons. Lesser outsiders eat half as much as a normal creature of their size, and need only sleep for 4 hours every day," thing?

Native already works pretty well for a creature with outsider blood but isn't a true outsider. The normal Outsider template works well on the big honchos. You just need an in between subtype.

On a side note, I wouldn't be against giving different outsiders diet dependancies like described in Libris Mortis. Adds flavor to them...hehe. Diet Dependancy: Virgins.

[Dthclaw]

Raven Bloodmoon, on Aug 2 2007, 09:36 AM, said:

Why not just make a second subtype for outsiders that is like Transient or something more fitting that does the "A Lesser outsider gains all the normal traits for an outsider, and also gains proficiency with simple weapons. Lesser outsiders eat half as much as a normal creature of their size, and need only sleep for 4 hours every day," thing?

Native already works pretty well for a creature with outsider blood but isn't a true outsider. The normal Outsider template works well on the big honchos. You just need an in between subtype.

On a side note, I wouldn't be against giving different outsiders diet dependancies like described in Libris Mortis. Adds flavor to them...hehe. Diet Dependancy: Virgins.

The problem with the Native sub-type is that it pretty explicitly says that it means that they're native to the Material Plane. And native outsiders still get automatic proficiencies. Rather than try to correct the text (which can lead to confusion in a published work as one side or another fights over which version should be 'correct') I'd rather just nix Native, downgrade the basic traits of the Outsider type, and make the sub-types for differentiation.

And while your tastes in outsider diets is as macabre as usual, I think that would be something for individual DM's to decide upon