[Raven Bloodmoon]

A wizard conjures a pit fiend that was, up until then, engaged in a conversation with Mephistopholese. While the pit fiend is busy killing the wizard for interrupting him, what is his physical body doing back in Baator? Is he aware that he was summoned? Is he able to continue his conversation without interruption? Is his power diminished at all during the duration of the spell? Does he just stand there motionless until the spell ends?


I'd like to know both the official answer and how you personally handle such situations. Because depending on how it affects the physical pit fiend in the above situation, it could create some interesting situations, customs, adn what not in Baator as well as some very interesting plans when fighting outsiders on their home turf.

[Dthclaw]

There is no official answer as for what happens to the physical body of a summoned creature.

Officially, they're aware of everything that happens while they're summoned, though nothing permanent happens to them whilst summoned.

I believe the intention of summoning is that the creature is kinda-sorta pulled out of existence wherever they are and they kinda-sorta appear where they're summoned. They're not really in either place and so nothing permanently happens to them while summoned.

Just my 2 cp.

[super sorcerer]

Quote

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

I think that it means the creature does dissapear from his original plane when summoned and then return unharmed to where ir was before.
I don't know which spell summon a balor though calling effects are something else. calling effects defenetly make the creature dissapear even if he is in a middle of a battle with a solar.
Usualy I play that unless you summon a specific creature the creature is summoned from the air (he just became existant for the duration of the spell) this solve many problems.

Once I played normaly and during the game once a character was called (with a gate spell) to a another plane. bacouse it is a calling effect everything that happened to the character on the other plane took full effect. On another time the intire party was called to another plane (but this time it was becouse of a scroll mishap of an unlucky spellcaster). It could make an interesting adventure.

[Vaskre]

My personal take:

When you summon anything, for example, a demon, that demon is pulled from his current plane and into the material world for as long as the spell indicates. Generally, summoning spells also bind the creature's will to the caster, but not always. So if someone was having a conversation with an Archdevil, that conversation would stop, they'd be forcefully dragged into the mortal realm, and they'd generally have to do the bidding of a wizard until that spell expires.

Another possibility is that it simply opens a portal to another plane, which any creature of a description matching the wizard's casting can go through.

So for example, the wizard conjures a pit fiend, a portal opens up that ANY pit fiend can go through, therefore, only a willing one will end up going through the summoning portal. This eliminates the possibility of disrupting something important somewhere else.

If the demon/devil/whatever is destroyed on the material plane, it remanifests in it's native plane unharmed, but banished, unable to return to the material world for a century.

That's mostly stuff I got from reading Forgotten Realms, but that's how I think it goes down.

[Lyinginbedmon]

We have to consider the ramifications of summoning, especially in high usage. If the real creatures themselves were summoned, plucked freshly from their homes and offices, to do the bidding of whatever X level Wizard needed them, there'd be heck to pay. The full wrath of several planes both fiendish and celestial would be brought to bare upon them for being such incredibly annoying jerks.

In addition of the death of the summoned creature, populations would drop. By the time a Wizard reaches Summon Monster IX, he's probably significantly depopulated a couple layers of the abyss.

So, the answer must be one tying directly to the school of Conjuration, to which summoning spells are attached. The spell seeks out a creature of the specific race desised and produces an exact facsimile. You "summon" a duplicate, basically. Being of your creation, the new duplicate is entirely subservient, and it's death is entirely inconsequential to interplanar affairs.

[super sorcerer]

The rules acually clearly state that a summoned creature can't permanently die when summoned, and if he die when summoned he reform in 24 hours (see summon monster description in PHB). It doesn't matter much anyway. by the way, do you realy think that a balor cares if one babau is sommoned for a task who is probably evil anyway for a minute or two? or even 24 hours? do you realy think this is a reason for total war against anyone who use summoning spells (most of those who summon evil creatures are evil themselves so it is acualy helping to spread the evil and beside devils summon other devils all the time)?
If it is only a duplicate then why would it take it 24 houres to reform?

If you call a creature through a calling effect (such as planar ally) I think it mean that he can realy die on its service. I don't think that anyone use neather planar ally nor planar binding too much becouse planar ally have an XP cost (not to mention the need to pay the creature back) and planar binding have it's own risks (such as not controlling the creature and such). These spell, which can reduce the abyss populations are used much less so it is not like the demon lords care too much anyway.

[Rintaran]

As close to an official explanation as possible can be found in the 2nd edition Planescape novel series published by WoTC (Part of the "Blood Wars Trilogy" I think). Near the beginning of the novel, a lesser devil is being summoned, which opened up a gate in Baator. The gate called out to the nearby demons of that type, letting them know that they could get to the Prime Material. It also alerted a greater devil (a pit fiend I believe), who was actively searching for a way to the Prime. The Pit Fiend arrived at the same time as the lesser devil, and forced the lesser creature to step aside and let the Pit Fiend go in its stead. It then mentioned the lesser devil grumbling as the body of the Pit Fiend disappeared through the gate. Thus, the physical body, for all intents and purposes, is no longer there and no longer in danger. Death causes the physical body to reform in its home plane within 24 hours. Additionally, this demon has memories of his previous travels to the Prime. This eliminates the "duplicate" theory.

Oddly, this is opposite of the official explanation of similar effects, such as Astral Travel, which causes the consciousness to abandon the physical body as the being travels the astral plane. The physical body remains in these cases, completely vulnerable to attack.


For myself, when a summoning does affect a greater or intelligent creature, unless the true name was called, I utilize this "calling" method. When the true name is called, its only slightly more difficult. Devils are devious enough to come up with an excuse to get away from other devils (and telling a level lord that their being called to wreck havoc on the prime is usually good for them). Demons don't really give a [BROWNIES] and will go anyhow. As for other planar intelligences, I'm sure they can figure out a way to safely attend the call. Their physical disappearance allows them to remain safe so that I can recycle these NPCs at a later date.

[Lyinginbedmon]

Rintaran, on Aug 24 2007, 03:58 PM, said:

This eliminates the "duplicate" theory.

It eliminates the duplicate theory in 2nd edition. My Laws of Magic and therefore my explanation are all 3.X based.

super sorcerer, on Aug 24 2007, 12:42 PM, said:

If it is only a duplicate then why would it take it 24 houres to reform?.

In my explanation, because the spell needs to find another creature to duplicate. The planes are very big, after all. And the spell's specific magical input restricts greatly the availability of creatures it can copy.

[Rintaran]

Very true Lying. However, 2nd Edition, and more precisely, the Planescape setting is the closest thing we have to an official on this matter (which I agree, is still a long ways from anything to count on). However, I think it would be better for the creature to have a memory of having been defeated, which the duplicate theory would kill. Additionally, how many times is the party going to have to kill the exact same Pit Fiend, who never ever seems to remember them or their tactics... A being that keeps the knowledge, learns and adapts would be better than a temporary duplicate, wouldn't you agree?

Also, why would it have to search for yet another creature to duplicate? Could it not infinitely duplicate the exact same creature? The spells specific magical input has already determined an optimal target for duplication, why would it need to lose its lock (short of an antimagic effect on the planar side of the equation)?

[Lyinginbedmon]

Okay, I'll see if I can explain it a little better:

When you first get the spell, it looks up one of every species you can summon with it on the other planes. It looks for one that it can duplicate with it's allotted magic amount, so it's looking at the most basic thing around.

As long as the duplicate isn't destroyed, the spell still has it's tether to that same creature. When the duplicate is destroyed however, the feedback breaks that tether. Between castings, the spell then looks to make a new tether, which takes the aforementioned 24 hours. Naturally, you might not have 24 hours between first getting the spell and casting it, but the forces of magic are a lot more dynamic when you first get them than the hundred and fifth time you've used them.

[Vaskre]

I hardly think there's any kind of debate here. Any creature you summon is likely willing, and according to Forgotten Realms, a summoned creature (such as a demon) cannot be destroyed on the material plane. If it is "killed", it is banished from returning to the plane for a century, but returns to it's native plane unharmed.

If an evil wizard wants to summon a demon to wreak havoc on his enemies, the demon isn't likely to object. Demons ENJOY that sort of thing, after all, and it's not like a summoning spell has a long duration.

If a good wizard wants to summon a celestial to save a city from evil invaders, likewise, the celestial isn't going to object.

Furthermore, summoning spells only designate creatures. It does not say Bob the Ice Devil has to appear, but rather, just an ice devil. There can be plenty of those laying around, and more than a few I'm sure aren't up to anything important.