[Raven Bloodmoon]

Well, I've finally broken down and started in on the sort of generic stuff that will make Red proud. I am working on making a point-based charcter/monster creation system for d20 that should handle standard DnD as well as d20 modern and d20 future. The game mechanics themselves won't change (except in instances where I house rule them for my own purposes), but the creation process will be altered drastically. Gone will be the days of levels and the like. The only significant rule alteration I am implementing is point-based casting + magic skills. For starters, I'll drop a proposed pricing chart here for debate and post more as time and life allow.

Abilities
The main two alterations here are primarily for the purposes of eliminating some longstanding disputes on this board. Firstly, Wisdom and Charisma have been removed. Intelligence represents all of your mental faculties, now. It also governs some secondary traits you can alter independantly, as you will see later. Additionally, Spirit was added as an independant magic-governing trait the DM can BS into anything he feels like. Thus no more Int vs. Wis vs. Cha debates.

* Strength [default 10, 10 pts/1]
* Dexterity [default 10, 20 pts/1]
* Constitution [default 10, 10 pts/1]
* Intelligence [default 10, 20 pts/1]
* Spirit [default 10, 20 pts/1]

Secondary Abilities
These are abilities you can alter but are based on the previous five abilties in some way.
* Fortitude [default Con, 5 pts/1]
* Reflex [default Dex, 5 pts/1]
* Move Speed [default (Dex + Con)/4, rounded to the nearest 5 ft., 5 pts/5 ft.]
* Hit Points [5 pts/d4, 7 pts/d6, 9 pts/d8, 11 pts/d10, 13 pts/d12]
* Fatigue Points [7 pts/d4, 10 pts/d6, 13 pts/d8, 16 pts/d10, 19 pts/d12]
* Perception [default Int, 5 pts/1]
* Will [default Int, 5 pts/1]
* Mana [7 pts/d4, 10 pts/d6, 13 pts/d8, 16 pts/d10, 19 pts/d12]

Charisma will not completely disappear, but it will turn into a sort of feat-like thing that you buy levels of and the bonus modifies any rolls that deal with social interactions (at the DM's discretion). That way Charisma actually means charsma, and not your looks (another feat-like thingy) or your ability to lightning from your eyes and fireballs from your arse.

Feats and special abilities will vary in price from as little as 2 points for very minor, specific bonuses or penalties to possibly as high as 100 points.

Skills are described here:
Each skill will have a difficulty associated with it. The more difficult a skill is to learn, the more points it will cost. Additionally, each skill will have a default incompetence penalty for unskilled use (if you can use it unskilled). This varies by difficulty.

* Easy [default key ability - 4]
* Average [default key ability - 5]
* Hard [default key ability - 6]
* Very Hard [default key ability - 8]

Additionally, there is a simple table that I'm too lazy to jam into this post for the point cost. It basically progresses 1 / 2 / 4 / 4, etc for the price of the next level of skill, and what level it buys depends on the difficulty of the skill. One point in an easy skill comppletely buys off the penalty (skill level 0); 1 point in an Average skill will buy off a penalty to only a -1. One point in a Hard skill will buy off a penalty to a -2; and 1 point in a Very Hard skill will buy off the penalty to -3. Each additional level in a skill puchased will buy one more level in the skill. Skill checks are made normally (1d20 + skill level + key ability modifier + other mods). This is a very skill-happy character construction method, so you can skill whore it up pretty easily, if you forgo the flashier traits and special abilities.

That all probably sounds complicated, but I'll try to wikify it and link so it i'll have the space adn time to make it more clear. Until then, your thoughts are appreciated.

[Dthclaw]

Hmm, okay. Done right with regards to feats, everything should be fine.

So are you dropping a sixth ability score entirely, or have you just not come up with a decent replacement? Some sort of Comeliness ability (or maybe move Perception to an ability score?) would help keep things feeling balanced between physical v. "non-physical" abilities and traits.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Comeliness should just be a trait, really. And as perception is based on Int, I don't see where it'd make a good 6th ability. Actually, I don't see why we would need a 6th ability. Point-wise, mental and physical abilities are equal anyway. But that's just me.

[RedSlayer]

Do you really need to separate Constitution and Strength? An elegant 4 stat system may be appropriate. Something like "Fitness".

Also, I can see where Perception is quite separate from Int. Just look at all the bookworms who couldnt find there [CHAIR] with both hands and a map, vs. the football jock who is aware of everyone's position on the field, including his opponents.

Just a thought.

[Cuilean]

RedSlayer, on Apr 18 2007, 08:47 PM, said:

Do you really need to separate Constitution and Strength? An elegant 4 stat system may be appropriate. Something like "Fitness".

Yes, you really do. At one point, I was pretty "fit"... could run five miles in under half an hour... but not close what I would consider strong. Nowadays, I'm stronger --- I can lift more weight --- but I can't run five miles in less than 45 minutes.

RedSlayer, on Apr 18 2007, 08:47 PM, said:

Also, I can see where Perception is quite separate from Int. Just look at all the bookworms who couldnt find there [CHAIR] with both hands and a map, vs. the football jock who is aware of everyone's position on the field, including his opponents.

Completely agreed, but Spot's a Wisdom check, not Intelligence. They tucked intuition-like/somethings-out-of-place sort of abilities under Wisdom

I apologize for rehashing other threads here. Part of the biggest problem is that people hear "Charisma" and think "Looks" --- it's not that at all. It's personality -- the innate trait of being a leader. Neither is Charisma any closer to Wisdom than Intelligence.

Just completely generic here, but...

• High Charisma, Low Wisdom: MBAs and elected officials
  
• High Charisma, Low Intelligence: Car salesmen
  
• High Intelligence, Low Charisma: Rocket scientists
  
• High Wisdom, Low Charisma: Judges

There are three "physical" stats and three "mental". Trying to simplify it further than that devalues one or the other.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Quick update: Charisma is an ability again. It doesn't actually have any secondary abilities linked to it, but it's there anyway. You will be able to purchase good looks, which granta bonus to certain skill checks (diplomacy, bluff, etc., but not necessarily Intimidate) or trade in for ugliness and more points to spend. I'm still not sold on Wisdom being an ability.

Here's the next update / roadblock. I've worked out most of how spells will work, but there is one thing that is stumping me. Spirit is the ability that measures yoru magical potency and how much mana you have to throw around. Think of it as a combination fo your key casting stat and your magical constitution. Yes, you buy mana dice. It never hurts to have more mana, after all. Now here's the kicker, though. How do you figure out what a spell's caster level should be when there are no class levels?

At first I considered making it equal to your Spirit. This didn't work because then you'd default to caster level 10. Then I considered making Spirit default to 0, but that introduced a whole world of issues. Right now, I am thinking about making it Spirit - 10 = Caster Level. Thus, the higher your Spirit score, the higher your caster level, which affects the range, area, and duration of yorur spells, typically. All other level-dependant variables will be increased by spending additional mana (like augmenting a psionic power). I figure this way the energy you put into it determines how much meat adn potatoes you get out, but your personal power also can amp up the basics of the spell big time.

So you see why I want to tie caster level to Spirit, but I'm rather unsure as to how to go about doing that.

there is one last thing before everyone jumps down my throat for making magic dependant on a single stat that people will just pump through the roof. The way I plan on balancing the single dependancy is twofold. Firstly, I will just hike the point cost of increasing Spirit until it is balanced. Secondly, people with a high Spirit score might be more easily noticed by actual spirits and other magic users. There might actaully be spells or skills to hide your true Spirit power, so to speak. But all of that is more flavor than anything. If people dip into Spirit too much, hike the price on it. Eventually they will have to be giving up skills, feats, and abilities to get that highi Spirit score and they'll stop.

So yeah. Any ideas or suggestions you might have, let me know. Maybe some day we will get an ultra-generic d20 DnD that doesn't deal with per dium crap out of this. Maybe even befor eWotC releases v4.0.

[EDIT]
As an afterthought, Spirit might be able to take over the Inuitiion portion of Wisdom. So nothing will be lost from the original system. Just thought I'd toss it out there.

[Dthclaw]

Hmm... one possible alternative to figuring caster level might be to remove caster level functions entirely, instead making everything dependent on how much mana is spent on the spell, with a cap equal to x based on some measurable limit such as Spirit. So... your low-level casters can cast with the big boys and girls, but they're burned out after one or two spells, whereas the ones with enormous mana reserves are still doing their thing, which would be the balancing factor for a freeform system.

And though I agree that a freeform system may make more sense from the perspective of balance, rule clarity, and customization issues, I have a hard time seeing the hardliner hold-overs from 1E/2E at WotC doing anything but striking down any attempt to move 'standard' D&D from a class based system. Cuz keep in mind, many of the folks at Wizo's actually wanted to do away with the traditional form of magic missile, and true strike and other 'hallmark' spells that have been around forever were only kept as-is by the vehement opposition of D&D grognards that didn't want the golden cow de-sanctified. 4E is going to be class based, I'm 99.8% certain.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

So what your suggseting is that the number of mana spent sets teh caster level, and that the amount of mana you can spend at once is determined by your Spirit score? I'll have to think about that a bit. At first glance, that sounds like it's not quite right. How much mana you have to spend is partially (and may be in a large part) dependant on your Sprit score already. This would just deplete your mana faster without producing the potentially backward result that could arise. I'm thinking of someone that, while he sucks at what he does, just has so munch inherent power that his spells come off better than they seem like they should. Then again, that could just as easily result from someone that just always casts a maximum mana. Hmm. Do you understand the situation I'm talking about?

As for 4ed, I doubt they'll dump classes. The one thing that has me curious is whether they are going to move more toward a per encounter system for abiilties (i.e. rage / ToB) or if they go moe toward the point pools they keep spitting out. It'd be nice if they created a unified point pool system, even if there are still classes (which believe it or not, I do like). We should start up some wagers over on the wotc boards and donate the profit to Lady. Anyone know a guy who knows a guy who owns a baseball bat and goes by the name of Little Joey?

[Dthclaw]

Quote

So what your suggseting is that the number of mana spent sets teh caster level, and that the amount of mana you can spend at once is determined by your Spirit score? I'll have to think about that a bit. At first glance, that sounds like it's not quite right. How much mana you have to spend is partially (and may be in a large part) dependant on your Sprit score already. This would just deplete your mana faster without producing the potentially backward result that could arise. I'm thinking of someone that, while he sucks at what he does, just has so munch inherent power that his spells come off better than they seem like they should. Then again, that could just as easily result from someone that just always casts a maximum mana. Hmm. Do you understand the situation I'm talking about?

Vaguely. But aside from throwing corruption at someone for casting spells burning too much mana for their ability, I'm fresh out of other ideas.

[RedSlayer]

Hmm, there have been quite a few systems out there that have a similar setup to what you are talking about.

Something along the lines of:

You know a spell/ability.
You are given a number of variables that all scale in cost, and you mix/match depending on the effect you want.


For example, you may know a "Fly" spell.

You would have "targets", "speed", "range", and "duration".

Targets:
1 target=1 mana
2 targets=2 mana
3 targets=3 mana

Speed:
10 ft/round=1 mana
30ft/round=2 mana
50ft/round=3 mana

Range:
Touch=1 mana
10 ft=2 mana
100 ft=3 mana

Duration:
1/round=1 mana
1/turn=2 mana
1/hour=3 mana

So if you wanted to you and a buddy wanted to fly at 30ft/round for a minute, it would cost 7 mana.

Just a rough example. You can have linear progressions (ex:targets), exponential progressions (duration), factors of ten progressions (range) etc.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

That's a cool idea, but I'm afraid it would slow things down way too much. Not to mention that would require rewriting all of the spells out there. I may have been up for that task in teh past, but I really don't see myself as having that much time to commit these days. I guess it's nice having a little bit of a life, but hell if I can figure out how to get anything done anymore...lol.

[jack(tim)]

Well that's what we're here for Rave... to help with the kinks and do the dirty work that you can't do yourself. Hell, you know I've been looking for a magic system like this to work off of... Spell levels has been eating me up since I became a DM way back when.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Thanks, Jack, I appreciate it. I must say that I've come up with a little bit for spells. Here's what I've got at the moment.

Spellcraft skill is gone (just to do away with confusion that might arise). In its place are eight Thaumaturgy skills - one for each school of magic. Each Thaumaturgy skill serves two purposes. It acts as the "Spellcraft" skill for that school of magic and it is used to cast spells from that school of magic. In order to cast a spell, you must spend any mana required and make a Thaumaturgy check (each spell has a listed DC to cast). In such cases as dual-school spells, use the highest Thaumaturgy skill for the check. If you succeed, the spell goes off properly; otherwise, you screw it up and it fizzles. In really bad circumstances, you may drain extra mana from yourself or the like. Spell DCs range from 14 to 46, potentially higher depending on the craziness of the spell.

For the purposes of determining effects based on caster level, I have two systems, depending on whether or not we are using class levels or a levelless system. When using class levels, caster level is determined by class levels and only affects variables in the spell's stat block (range, number of targets, extent of area, duration). In a level-less system, your caster level equals the average of your mana dice and your Spirit score. In this way, you can create a very potent caster that doesn't have much skill at casting (high Spirit / Mana Dice, low Thaumaturgy ranks) or a what ever. Until now, that's been difficult to do.

As I have yet to complete the levelless system, mostly owing to the enormity of the task of assigning point values to all of the abilities in the game and then yoinking tons of advantages and disadvantages from GURPS to fill out things like monster creation, the levelless system has not seen any playtesting whatsoever.

On an unrelated note, how would you all handle CR and experience point awards with a levelless system? Personally, I'm already starting to lean toward an ad hoc system, even for normal DnD games, but I'm turning into a control freak.

[jack(tim)]

I would recommend that spells that have dual-schools that there be a synergy bonus to the check if the player has ranks in both schools. (Reasoning: Knowledge of the spell from both schools would parley into one another. It's like seeing the same spell from two different angles therefore making it easier to see it in completion)...

As far as CR in a levelless system I would recommend that you base it on one of two factors, HP dice, Total of CP (character points) divided by some random allotment (as in a conversion factor to a levelled system, eg. 40/1st level character -or- 1 cr character, 50/2nd lvl cr 2, etc. etc.)

Or at least those are my thoughts.

This post has been edited by jack(tim): 10 July 2007 - 12:35 AM