[SchizofranicDM]

Well, this is something that's been bothering me for some time. What's the real deal with the hit point system in DnD. It's fantasy, i know, but i think that it should still be as realistic as possible when it comes to the explainable factors. I get the fact that as you level up, you become tougher and more resiliant to blows, but when was the last time you saw someone take five painful wounds from a greatsword? For crying out loud, people can go into shock after just one swing let alone five. One DM i know explained to me that the more hit points are reflective of the fact that the higher level you are, the better you can take damage. When you were first level, and a sword hits you, it hit you and it hurt. But at later levels, that same swing is less lethal since you have the skills enough to move your body to make the blow less painful. But isn't that what AC and damage reduction is for? after all, using the hp system of dealing damage, an epic barbarian would be able to withstand a blast from half a pound of C4. skilled as one may be, a blast like that will filet the flesh from your bones. This thought bothered me the most when a character in one of our campaigns was slammed through a solid block of masonry by a large swinging tree trunk trap. in all reality, your bones should be crushed by the sheer force of it, but because he had the hp to take it, he survived. that's why i like the death from massive damage idea. especially Hitokiri's variant on it. but even then, what if your character has a Con of 18. are you saying that the only thing that could force a roll versus death is a character with a Str of an 18 swinging a greataxe rolling max damage? so a character with a 17 Str, who can lift about 260 lbs over his head, dealing max damage would never be able to force a fort save unless he scored a crit? well some might say that that's the nature of an 18 Con, but what's the nature of a cleaving greataxe but to cleave? dealing max damage with an axe has to be nearly enough to cleave someone in half no matter what the Con. Remember that in the Braveheart battle scenes, Wallace was cleaving people left and right with his claymore. Even against the lieutenants, who are probably 7th level characters, it didn't take him five or six hits to drop them. and it's not like he constantly crit'ed every time. alright, a claymore would probably deal enough damage to require a fort save, but they're beefy 7th level fighters, they should be able to fairly withstand that. Anyway...i still i much in love with DnD (as previous posts should suggest) but this is something that's just been bothering me for sometime. besides, i love playing the character who can take ten hits from a giant and still stand to whoop at the end. perhaps i've written enough.

[The_Bard]

ok HP in the way i figure it is a fairly complex idea. I thought of it along the lines of how you were explaining an experienced fighter taking the damage better. where as a first level fighter might try to stop a claymore with his skull a 10th level fighter recieve a glancing blow on his shoulder. I admit this is similar to the AC system but it would be highly annoying having a 10th level fighter with a 40 AC and nothing can hit you except a crit. and when that crit does hit your automatically dead, because they attacked you with a big sword. I think that is why they wrote out the big sword rule in the system. It brings out the more fantasy and not natural part of dnd. If a mage can cast a spell a high level fighter can get hit several times. This idea applies to your Braveheart reference in which Braveheart was a historically based movie. And in history people didn't take several hits from great axes or claymores or other such large weapons of death. But DnD is based in a different world that would allow a fighter to take a sword blow in a way that wouldn't kill him maybe a knick to the arm or leg or other such non-vital areas. As for a Barbarians damage reduction i think that applies to their sheer ability to absorb damage. Those are the really ripped fools that can take a sword in the chest and their muscle mass alone stops it from going into their heart, I think that is the idea behind damage reduction.

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

Wow... Bard you were pretty good at explaining that. Must be genetic or something man.

[SchizofranicDM]

genetic? i...don't get it.

[blacxthornE]

SchizofranicDM, on May 20 2004, 08:41 AM, said:

genetic? i...don't get it.

That's understandable. Your genes are pretty much messed up, so... That's understandable...

[Darius]

Illumimanti did 1 gene splice too many on him

D

[blacxthornE]

I tend to disagree with you, Schizo.

The HP system is completely different from AC and Damage Reduction.

HP indicates how much damage and wounds you can get before you die, but neither AC nor DR indicates that.

AC indicates how *hard* it is to hit you, not how much damage you can get.

DR may also sound similar, but in theory, has nothing to do with wounds or damage *taken*. DR indicates how much damage you ignore. Here is an example:

Let's say there's a monk with 16 AC, 5/- DR, and 18 HP (doesn't have to make sense, I'm just trying to make a point here)...
* This character is not so hard to hit, a Level 14 Fighter would just try to avoid attacking with a 1 roll (automatic fail), otherwise (2+) he hits easily.
* When he hits him, he has to deal a good damage. Probably from something the monk wears, he does not even feel a normal blow with 5 or less damage. That is, he can be hit, but he is a little hard to deal damage to. If you hit him and roll a damage result of 4, he doesn't get a wound from it, because it is absorbed by something else (armor, stoneskin, whatever gives the DR)
* Finally, if you hit him and hit him hard, the monk takes damage. That's when he is actually wounded. And if he takes actual damage of 28, he is dead (when the HP 0 through -10 is counted).

Another monk with 40 AC, 15/- DR, and 6 HP:
* This one cand die from a tiny flesh wound.
* However, it is almost impossible to hit. Once you hit him he dies, maybe, but you have to roll a 20 (possible crit and automatic hit) to hit him. Also a fighter Level 20 wouldn't be able to hit the monk with a normal weapon even if he rolls 19. This monk is slippery!
* Also when you hit him, you can't open even a flesh wound that easily. By some spell, or something else maybe, this monk has a DR of 15/- which means a maximum damage with a bastard sword and a STR modifier of +5 (which means you have at least 20 STR) would not even hurt the monk.

So on it goes. These three things are completely different for me.

[The_Bard]

but i think his original point is that a fighter with 50 hitpoints could theoretically get hit with a great sword and take full damage (assuming no damage bonus from strength or other sources) up to 4 times. Or he can even take a critical hit from a great sword under the same circumstances. It doesn't make sense that as you level up you can get hit more with a sword. You don't get more blood to lose or more limbs to get chopped off. You have to account for something like skill, like i previously said. Something like how you take the blow.

[Gamemasta]

If we wanted reality we would all dress up in Tin Mail with plastic swords and run around thumping each other on the heads.
It is a method of balancing the game. You may alter the game, after all the books are just guides. But beware that you will then have a party full of Mages and Clerics. Noone would carry a dagger, you would have an army of greatsword weilders.
I bet you question the movie Rockey IV (thousand), where Drago who can hit with 1000 PSI is blasting him in the face 30-50 times per round and he comes back and wins?
We once had a guy (physicist) in the group figure out the trillions of horsepower it took to empty a room full of water in 3 seconds through a one inch hole. The GM looked at him and said "Its magic!"

My Point-
Its a game/entertainment it requires balance, not everything has to be 100% justified to reality, unless of course you are a physicist, but I think we all know that Physics and D&D don't mix.

[Doomdreamer]

On another level, tend to think of HP as a more Scenimatic approach to damage. Like Bruce Willis getting shot just above something major, or being able to twist in such a way that Greatsword grazes you. HP could be more of an inflection on how lucky you have gotten, or how much fate wants you around.

Unlike DR and AC, you actualy get hit, but, the damage was Negligable. Your arm was grazed, the sword didn't pierce you, but the hilt crashed into your wrist. When you get low on HP, or serious amounts of Damage are dealt, the actual pain starts. Arteries get puncture, organs fall out, that sort of thing.

Thats what keeps me from thinking of D&D as a Wille E. Coyote cartoon.

D*mn you Road Runner!

[blacxthornE]

I agree to the last two posts.

As to Schizo, do you mean you want a 'realistic' gamestyle where you die when you get hit? Why do you even bother playing the game then? Just roll a dice, the higher results kills the lower. There's a realistic game for you. That's senseless.

[dragonhand777]

Quote

I agree to the last two posts.

As to Schizo, do you mean you want a 'realistic' gamestyle where you die when you get hit? Why do you even bother playing the game then? Just roll a dice, the higher results kills the lower. There's a realistic game for you. That's senseless.

Same here.

Hp, are not only found in Dnd, they're in just about every video rpg or action adventure style game out there.

The example using Bruce Willis (like in one of his Die hard flicks) is a good exaple!

However, when it comes to Barbarians, I'm not so sure its the muscle that is responsible for damage reduction (besides, that would still hurt). Say your barb. only has a 16 str. but the fighter has 18. A fighter won't get damage reduction.

I feel damage reduction is more the result of the mentality/forocity of the barbarian (hence the ability to 'shrug off' damage).

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

They great people who created DnD did their best to create as realistic a game as possible and this is what they came up with. The reason that I like the MD (massive damage) equal to Con score variant is because it seems more real to me. Granted the guy with the 18 Con can take the hit from the greatsword but thats because he is healthy and brutish enough to take it. Also, not everyone has an 18 Con. As I believe you said somewhere else SchizofranicDM (one of you anyways), most people only have the 10 Con and don't get past maybe 5th level. PCs and their NPC enemies or allies are just the exception to the rule.

[Post Sleeper]

I like to decapitation style. A criticle hit does not deal extra damage, it just permanently damages a limb (Hack it off, or something similar)

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

That is a very interesting way to do crits. I think I might use that soon.