[RedSlayer]

I have a thought experiment in mind, inspired by earlier discussions of granting all the crafting feats to all characters. Actually it's two experiments, but I'll start another thread for the other.

What if the minimum attribute score requirements on all feats were removed? Minimum BAB, character level, prerequisite feats and such would remain in effect.

For purposes of this discussion, let's limit the available feats to only those in the core books. And while we're at it, let's stick with the classes and prestige classes in (or recommended in) the core books.

Now anyone, even a real weakling, could take Power Attack... representing more of a wild desparate swing than a calculated haymaker, most likely.

A lot of spellcaster feats suddenly become available to every random mook adept with a casting stat of 12... but how bad would this be? Would it be bad?

What do you think? Do any new and incredible builds come to mind? Does this alter the game too much to preserve the CR system as it stands? Does a dragon with Dex-type feats become silly?

[Dthclaw]

Honestly, I don't think that it would really have much of an impact at all. It would be easier to do some builds (dual-wielders, for example), but nothing earth-shatteringly different. Okay, so some weak mook can take Power Attack. Hoopty do if they can't hit to begin with. Same mook can take spellcasting feats. Again, hoopty do if they can't cast to begin with. Granting all crafting feats to characters? Hoopty do, since I've yet to see a player *ever* craft an item on their own (not even their own potions or scrolls... they rely entirely on the posibility of such items being available on the market... hell, they won't even make items that don't cost them XP).

Characters that are going to use those feats with ability score requirements are probably going to have decent to high ability scores in the relevant ability anyway, so really this variant is only going to have any major impact on NPCs. I see no problem with it, because it honestly isn't going to have a notable impact.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

That opens things up to a degree, but not nearly as much of one as one might think. Really, I think the Fighter would benefit the most because such MAD builds as a cleaving two-weapon fighter with spring attack becomes completely feasible. Outside of Fighter, the impact is greatly limited. In fact, that might help make fighters less underpowered.

[drhunter]

Personally, my biggest struggle with characters is often stat requirements. This is because I generally find myself in low to medium powered campaigns, and such characters generally just can't reach the amazing requirements of some feats. I was in a slightly high powered campaign once and found that most of my enjoyment came from feat access, not really the power the stats themselves granted. Not to say I enjoy powergaming or any such, I just enjoy accomplishing a character concept.

I agree with Raven about it helping the fighter more than most, because of their many bonus feats they'd be allowed to take many of the more useful combat feats without throwing their stats all across the board. Some may consider this bad, since that's the limiting factor, "You can't do everything well." Well how about rolling up a druid? Maybe a Bard? They can do pretty much anything, if not the greatest, still horribly well. Alot better than a Fighter trying the same.

My arguement? I lost it somewhere. Maybe I just wanted to say everyone should consider running this by their DM or players. It may become a favoured house rule. Some feats outside the core books may have to still be restricted, but alot of feats outside the core books SHOULD be restricted anyway. Freaking Complete Mage.

[Tel Janin Grymm]

I remember the old days ('cause I'm old) when classes had prerequisite minimum ability scores, and I rejoiced to see that thrown out the window with third edition. I can understand WotC's reasoning for the minimums, but I don't really believe they're necessary. If we look at a few of the 'common' feats with minimum stat requisites, we can analyze it. Power Attack & Combat Expertise: STR/INT 13 respectively. I lump these together because they're darn near the same thing. The important thing to consider about these feats is that they allow you to sacrifice experience-earned skill (accuracy) to gain their respective benefits. What difference would it make what the relevant ability score is? None, as I see it.
How about Two-Weapon fighting with its DEX 15 prereq? It's the steepest ability prereq of any core feat available at 1st level. Is there a reason? Manual dexterity and hand-eye coordination maybe. Well, I've piddled around (I'd say trained, but that's really a stretch) with melee combat (fencing, kendo, SCA, LARPs, etc.) for the last 22 years. I doubt I'm gifted with the real world equivelent of a 15 DEX, but I'm a passable Florentine (Two-Weapon) fighter. It just takes practice.

So, yeah. I'm for scrapping them. I wanna throw another wrench in though. What about the prerequisite stats for each particular spell level?

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Well, if you look up the system I use for magic, you'll notice that a 1st level wizard with Int 3 and some drool on his face is theoretically capable of casting a 9th level spell. I use a point-based casting system that allows a character to exude 1 point per level per round of spell points. You can make a Concentration check to not blow it and get mana burn, so to speak, and each successfive round increases the DC of the Concentration check. The result is that such a numbskull as mentioned above is capable of casting any spell. But he would be the luckiest person alive to be able to make 19 consecutive Concentration checks, each with an increasing DC (20 + mana currently held). In essence, he'd have to roll 19 consecutive natural 20s.

Anyway, that's really off topic. Point is, I don't use any minimum stats.

And on a side note, I'm actually working on a new revision of my personal gaming rules that includes turning casting into Int-based skill checks. So again, still no use for ability prerequisites.

[RedSlayer]

Actually, I think its a Bad Idea. (capital B )

If casters do not become stat dependent, then they can put points towards other stats, while still casting full-on hardcore spells. Sure, saves would be a point or two lower, and maybe minus a bonus low level spell, but still, I dont think any wizard I would know would complain about what would amount to essentially free hp, save bonuses, AC, attack, etc.

If I was a fighter, I would cry.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Hahaha. Well, once this revision is finished, I'll let you wail all you want over it, but I think you'll find it to be moderately balanced. That is not to say that I don't see your point. It woudl suck to be a fighter who encoutners a Dex-happy sorc buffed out and slinging 9th level spells at him. Or worse still, a multiclassed wizard that uses his abilities to the advantage of his other class whiel still suffering no penalty to his spellcasting. In its current state, Red is right. In a highly modified (read: bastardized) version, it can work.