[Yorick]

SchizofranicDM, on May 19 2004, 03:02 PM, said:

Not sure where you'd put them up, but convert them first.

Ok I have them in hand but I am haveing trouble finding a good caractor sheet ( on line type that can handle custome Items) generator any sugestions

currently expermenting with PC Gen ok for stats and stuff not custom items Sigh

so many caractors so little time

[SchizofranicDM]

i'm not much for generators, i prefer the good old, pen and paper way of doing things. that's probably what you're gonna have to do.

[sparxmith]

The_Bard said:

Because now you have so many options you are focusing what your character is doing not why. I have noticed that often players lose focus when a mage can level an army, or a fighter can single handedly take out a tarrasque. I find they become too apathetic and get too focused on completing the quest on not on why they are on it. Like why would their specific personality take on the quest? I don't ask that you agree with me but acknowledge that I am right.

Hmmmm....seems to me you that you just haven't played with the right DM. There's no such thing as being TOO POWERFUL. D&D is all about running as fast as you can to stay in the same place. As you progress, even to epic levels, there is always something more challenging waiting behind the next door. If characters become too powerful for the game, then the DM doesn't know how to read, or add. Futhermore, it sounds like you expect the DM to create a compelling reason to Railroad the characters. Characters of such power do the things they do because they can and because few can stop them. If you had the power to fix the problems of the world, you'd be a fool and a coward not to. If that's not compelling enough, if that causes apathy, then I suggest you take up a more noble hobby like, say, Yu Gi Oh!

As fas as not agreeing with you, but acknowledging that you are right, I must first quote Howard Roark from The Fountainhead, "You really should learn that words have a precise meaning." For me to acknowledge that you are right when I disagree with you is to commit intellectual suicide: for the logic upon which my thoughts rest has just been destroyed in doing so. In other words, anybody would be dumb for saying you're right if they disagree. If I believe that A < B, and you tell me that B < A, I cannot acknowledge that you are right-- for my senses and my judgement dictate that you are wrong.

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

sparxmith, on May 20 2004, 04:46 AM, said:

Hmmmm....seems to me you that you just haven't played with the right DM.  There's no such thing as being TOO POWERFUL.

I would have to disagree with that assessment. Eventually, when you have destroyed every primal elemental, every adamantite golem, every advanced dragon, and have to go up against gods to start meeting a challenge, it gets kinda boring. There can only be so much that is more powerful than you before you become the most powerful. That is the challenge that every DM has to overcome when the characters are getting uber-epic. You can't just throw in another massively strong monster because the PCs are running out of things to fight. That would remove the realness from the game, which is something that DMs like.

[SchizofranicDM]

Actually no. dieties have as many challenges as mortals. and they can be just as exciting. the epic struggle between Corellon and Gruumsh, the war among the brothers, Heironeous and Hextor, and the fate to be decided between Bahamut and Taimet. Some of the most beautiful stories told. at such higher levels, the proper DM can shift from saving the world, to unraveling a greater secret between the races and the gods themselves. such room for role play! I've got an epic encounter set up where one of the npcs that the players have known for the last fifteen levels is actually a god among mortals. the story develops into an intricate plot that will lead the players to understand the beginning of the realms better than the oldest bards or great wyrms. it is all dependant on the skill of the DM.

[The_Bard]

sparxmith, on May 20 2004, 04:46 AM, said:

As fas as not agreeing with you, but acknowledging that you are right, I must first quote Howard Roark from  The Fountainhead, "You really should learn that words have a precise meaning."  For me to acknowledge that you are right when I disagree with you is to commit intellectual suicide:  for the logic upon which my thoughts rest has just been destroyed in doing so.  In other words, anybody would be dumb for saying you're right if they disagree.  If I believe that A < B, and you tell me that B < A, I cannot acknowledge that you are right-- for my senses and my judgement dictate that you are wrong.

I did not show interest in whether you were committing intelectual suicide or not. I was telling you too understand i am right if you disagreed with me. In which case if you followed that order then you would be committing intelectual suicide on yourself so how is it possible for me to be wrong? I did not make a statement that can be judged as right or wrong but a command to be taken to heart and applied to daily life. I understand that all words have a precise meaning and because of that I am always right because those who do not agree with me, acknowledge that I am right. Which is in essence an intelectual paradox but each person will change their belief system to fit mine and in essence learn to agree with me or split their phyche into two, one disagreeing with me and the other acknowledging that I am right. Or at least that is what that saying is meant to imply.

I must admit that I did leave holes in my argument concerning epic level campaigns so I would like to revise that. First of all it depends if the epic scenario is a true campaign carried across many months or a simple scenario spanning a couple of sessions. If you are dealing with fully developed characters then they usually have a specific drive. By the time you get to epic levels you should have met this drive, because if you haven't it is probably too broad. For example vengence should have already been carried out. Protection of the weak, you should have organized an elite policing force that you can personally fund, and so on. If it is so broad that you haven't completed it then it really isn't much a drive, like "I love adventuring" may work some characters but would quickly become overused. There are some good adventuring ideas but in reality a lot of our lower level characters that we know and love would become retired by level 20 or so.

Starting off at a higher level. First of all there is a certain amount of cheeseballing you can do to any character. You can always take monster classes and only sacrifice a couple of levels and get something like a spell resistance which becomes infinitely helpful. This leads to too much emphasis on the power of a character and character creation. you also need to develop a very intricate story fairly quickly. You are a level 20+ character and there is a lot of stuff that character had to do to get where it is today. As much as everyone wants to say they put in the necessary time into developing a good story I have never seen or heard of a truly well developed high level character that wasn't taken from the ground up. There is too much to consider. Plus if you want to take these characters on a quick mission or some godly battle that is cool, but what then? is it really realistic to have these earth shattering events back to back. and if they are happening all the time why dont' two happen at once and destroy the whole world? I find it hardest to draw out high level games and taking characters through a quick scenario just doesn't seem as cool as developing a whole world that evolves with your characters. A world can't keep up with epic level characters. There is this idea of balance between good and evil in the game and the idea of the balance coming undone is way too overplayed so the scales can't be that far off. and a couple of adventuring epic characters will tip that balance quite quickly. Epic level campaigns just don't seem plausable.

There is something else from sparxmith's post that i would like to respond too.
"D&D is all about running as fast as you can to stay in the same place."

This seems to miss the whole element of D&D. If your characters aren't accomplishing anything why play? I always understood this game as something in which you can accomplish something. Like your characters have a quest and they are supposed to do that quest. If you kill such and such dragon it is dead and it won't terrorize the realms, not oh now he's dead now there are an infinite number of other bad things to go fight. I guess that also ties into the whole epic level argument, eventually everything your characters have done have to mean something. I would like to hear other people's opinions on this idea. What does D&D mean to everyone else?

[Yorick]

SchizofranicDM, on May 19 2004, 07:49 PM, said:

i'm not much for generators, i prefer the good old, pen and paper way of doing things. that's probably what you're gonna have to do.

Yes That is the way I normally do them but I was looking to time saving for NPCs and for uploading caractors for people to see and such.

[Yorick]

Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri, on May 20 2004, 12:25 AM, said:

sparxmith, on May 20 2004, 04:46 AM, said:

Hmmmm....seems to me you that you just haven't played with the right DM.  There's no such thing as being TOO POWERFUL.

I would have to disagree with that assessment. Eventually, when you have destroyed every primal elemental, every adamantite golem, every advanced dragon, and have to go up against gods to start meeting a challenge, it gets kinda boring. There can only be so much that is more powerful than you before you become the most powerful. That is the challenge that every DM has to overcome when the characters are getting uber-epic. You can't just throw in another massively strong monster because the PCs are running out of things to fight. That would remove the realness from the game, which is something that DMs like.

while yes it is true that in a well constucted world of the player become numro uno the only thing left is the gods. But there are may eways the players can be kept involved with what is going on in there world. things that affect their alingment, family friends town they protect and if they do not respond to play their caractors then doc them acordingly. if the group is a buch of hack and slashers put them in unsuall situations.

Only once as very young DM (I was 18 at the time) did I give up and let the players do what ever they wanted cause i could not come up with stuff to beat them.

Steal from them. have them fight them selves Etc. Etc.

If they really think they are so powerfull put them on godly quests

[dragonhand777]

I was one of the first to vote, and can't remember which I voted for. I know when I had voted, my vote was the only one for that level group.

Oh, well. It had to be 11-16. My vote was heavily inspired by the dwarf in my sig. When we quit running that campaign (dm burned out) Brogan was a 9th level ranger/4th level fighter. The other dwarf (Gonus, pc cleric/fighter) in the campaign had taken the Leadership feat. We went back to the citedale where we were from, he challenged the leader to a 1 on 1 combat and won. We then migrated through the portal to a better area. Then Gonus made Brogan a general in the army.

Out of all the years I've played, Brogan is one of my favorit characters that I've ever created.

[Silver tears]

I think that between 6 and 10 the abilities are quite fair and the creatures corresponding to this kind of levels are great

[mipadi]

I like 6-10th level the best, but I like to actually earn my way there, meaning I like to start out at 1st level. I've played with a few DM's who skip the beginning stuff and go right to 6th or 7th level, and I don't like that. I don't think you can develop a character as well as starting at 1st, and you don't have all that history to talk about if you just start at 6th or 7th. I once even had a DM start us off at 15th level. I made a horrible character because I had no idea what a good 15th level character was like!

[Kirthen]

I would have to say that 6-10 is my favorite spot for characters because then they start going into prestige classes, and start to get most of their good special abilities such as damage reduction 1/- for the barb. I also like to start at the beginning, i think its kind of cheap to start at like lvl6 right away. It takes all the fun out of almost dieing.

[Darklook]

1-5, specially first level. At first level you have to be always careful because of low hp, your combat abilities etc etc, every enctounter just seems more challenging than other levels.

[WoeTheSinner]

although i love starting and building a new char i'd have to say lvl 12 is my overall favorite...thats when ic an cast disintegrate ... best spell EVER

[PlaneTouchedOne]

I love the first few levels. I enjoyed every minute of it, even though I was a wizard. But now that I'm about ready to start DMing (and I want to start the PC's off at 1st level) it's frustrating because I love traps and puzzles...but they are just to delicate. I mean...say you're walking down a hallway and you fall into a 20' pit trap, instant 2d6 damage (1d6/10'), and wizards get like 1d4 for hitpoints I think. I can solve that problem by putting water in the pit...but still. Ugh.