[Doomdreamer]

Greetings once again mortals, right from the innerphane of the Temple to your strongholds, it is I the Doomdreamer again. This weeks rant is all about poisons and how I fail to understand why you fear them.

Ahhh poisons, in the real world, they are all around us, abestos, cyanide, strypnine, just to name a few. A small dose would kill any mortal, but in the D&D world....well....all you apparently need is a positive fortitude save, +3 will do for most, and a few days sleep.

Lets take Arsenic. About a Cc of the stuff (thats a cubic centimeter) will kill most people on the planet in a couple minutes. But in the magical world of Dungeons and Dragons, A fort DC 13 avoids the 1 con/1d8 con damage. What non-elf pesant can't handle that? Seriously folks, after a week nap the same farmer is back to plowing. He won't be happy but he will live. I thought poison was supposed to be scary? It seems to only add a bit of strategy to battle, much like grey magic in Final Fantasy. What king is scared of poison. He could just have his head priest on speed dial on his crystal ball. Remember when poison just killed you? Or halved your HP right then and there? Poison seems to be missing its luster. What is an assassin to do? A dagger is more dangerous to 1st level people then arsenic, whats up with that folks? And strength damage along with Dex? Come on, all that does is make you whiney and then you pass out. Sure a coup-de-grace can finish you off, but wouldn't the assassin have an easier time with sneak attack instead of spiking thanksgiving dinner?

Perhaps poison is more balanced in this fashion, but still, poison changed history folks. The greatest warriors known to walk the land feared a drop of the stuff, and battered house wives have used it as a cheap divorce ticket. Is it possible to bring back the old fear without unbalancing the game? Or are we stuck with....Blue Whinnis poison, more like blue whimpy poison.

The Doomdreamer

[Gamemasta]

Doomdreamer, on May 13 2004, 07:19 AM, said:

Perhaps poison is more balanced in this fashion... Is it possible to bring back the old fear without unbalancing the game?

E-zach-er-e!!
You got it bud. You can modify it, but beware of the game imbalance not to mention the 5% oopsie chance.
Look at it this way;
You can study magic from birth, until you gain enough power and might, risking death on numerous occasions to achieve the chance to gain the spell "Death Spell" or "Power Word Kill"
ooooor...
You can read a book on poisonous herbs, walk out into a field and pick one, and feed it to the bad guys. (ok maybe not that easy but close)

[ladyofdragons]

very good points, doomdreamer. I agree that a lot of the horror has gone out of poisons in D&D. 1st edition poison rules I think had a lot more clout to them.

If anyone out there has ever seen a movie called Queen Margot (a foreign french historical film), there's a fantastic scene where I believe it's Charles I gets poisoned by arsenic that is soaked into the pages of a book he was given, and each page he turns he licks his fingers. Slow and horrid way to die.

I'm guessing their reasoning is "game balance", but poison use in its own way is a great leveler, in that it really shouldn't matter what level you are (unless you're a druid or monk or some other class who gets poison resistance), you should either kick it or get really sick. Why have slow poison and neutralize poison spells if poison really can't kill you?

While yes deadly nightshade is poisonous, it's not like you can just make someone eat the darn plant by putting some flowers in their salad. Each plant releases it's active ingrediants in different ways. Some require oil extraction (such as woody stems of rosemary), others steam (like rose petals), others require the making of tinctures, which is a long slow process requiring special equipment. While poison use in the historical past has been a part of society in varying degress, I don't think it has ever been legal. producers of poison and anyone caught using it have generally been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Let's face it, the biblical quote "thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live", when misquoted in translation, caused the burning of "witches" for hundreds of years. Books regarding the manufacture of poisons should be rare, if not impossible to find in the white market.

If you do come up with a system of greater poison efficacy, then a good review of your campaign world society might come up with some balances to poison use. I mean, if poison use is explicitly outlawed as a beheading offense, and the king has wizardly ways of tracking down culprits, poisoners will think twice before trying. Or if poison use is more 'accepted', then everyone will have food tasters and carry antidotes to help them fight common poisons. Or perhaps Periapts of Proof Against Poison are a hot commodity among the upper crust.

[Yorick]

one thing you need to remember is all pc's are heroic therefore get to save on things that would kill a normal.

if you give the posion save to every one how many will actual have a save bonus? 13 save kills 65% of the time. 1D8 hitpoits will kill the average person. Take the one of the previos mentioned examples the Farmer, well if he sleeps for a week what happens to his family his crops and such.

historical leaders did not have a cleric with Neutrize posion standing by. In a DND world how weak would a leader seem. if you need more potent posions buy them How bout the venom form a feindish montous spider??
i the assisan can not afford them he need to charge more for his job.

As Players and DM's posion can have as big or as small a place in you campain as you want but remember if one side (Player or DM) has them the other side has them to. so do not be suprized some time if your own tactices are use on You especially if they can't kill you in a fair fight.


the Fights Fair only if you Win.

[dragonhand777]

Quote

Take the one of the previos mentioned examples the Farmer, well if he sleeps for a week what happens to his family his crops and such.

Not to mention, what happens to a group of adventurers that don't have any neutrallize poison spells, or 'antitoxin' potions and suffer con. or str. damage half-way through the day, out in the middle of no-where? Odds are, the encounters for the day aren't up yet. This really sucks for lower level characters. I know. It's happened.

But I gree totaly with you, Doomdreamer. All things considered, poisons aren't really that scary. Especialy for higher level, well equiped characters.

Hmmm...

If you (or anyone) come up with some alternaitve poison rules, I trust you'll post it here in this topic or in the resources section.(?)

[blacxthornE]

How about a kind of poison that kicks you in the nuts? That would hurt!

Ok, that was the first and last not-even-remotely-serious reply to this post. I'll think about it and hopefully come with good new serious rules.

I'll kick you in the nuts!
--Cartman, "South Park"

[Axel]

agreed. While the current rules allow for more balance in combat, they're unrealistic and really somewhat ludicrous. Historically Catherine of Aragon became the Queen of Spain by poisoning her brothers, among others. Both her brothers were accomplished warriors. In D&D any half-wit fighter (and they're a dime-a-dozen) can survive the lethal poisons she used. That's no fun not only from story reasons but also from the point of view of the assassin. Now the poisons of an assassin which are both difficult and expensive to make and procure should be very dangerous. I'm talking the old first edition rules: where even if it doesn't kill you you suffer massive, permanent, ability loss.
Now maybe we can go a little easier on the insect poisons where you're more likely to encounter them in combat....

[Rintaran]

I decided that the poisons were too skimpy quite some time ago. As a house rule, we do something somewhat differently. First, we round up any poison's DC to the nearest round number (making Arsenic have a DC of 14 instead of 13). Then we calculate the kill percent (70% for arsenic). Now, regardless of what your fortitude modifier is, you must roll above 70% on a percentile in order to avoid the poison's effect. If a poison requires a percentile roll above 100, we have them roll an extra d10 for every 10-point section and add that to their roll (ie they would roll 1d%+1d10 for anything between 101-110, 1d%+2d10 for 111-120, etc).

That's not the end of it. We then increase the die size for each of the poison's effects. So Arsenic's 1 con/1d8 con damage becomes 1d4 con/1d10 con damage. This makes it far more lethal, and harder to avoid.

Now, there are some feats and abilities that specifically work against poisons. In those cases, we reduce the percentile by 5%, but not the dies required to roll (so it would still be 1d%+1d10 if 104% was the required roll before the feat was taken into account and brought the requirement to 99).

I know this is a very complicated way a doing things, but it's far more realistic and damaging. As a balance, most members of the upper crust DO have taste testers. Most often, the cook (or a member of the chef's team) is the one who must sample the dish in front of him/her. Since I first implimented this rule over a year ago, 8 PCs have fallen victim to the dangers of poison (one via a poisoning attempt).

[Gamemasta]

Man i would NEVER join the chefs team. I would be a dishwashing masta if I had to test food!

[Doomdreamer]

New poison rules eh? Hurm. I'll write them up and post the buggers. I think personaly, under the new rules, they should do level damage, but hey, I am a Doomdreamer...

[dragonhand777]

Rintaran, I like your approach to poison use. I plan on incorperating that method into my own campaign world. It doesn't seem so complicated (well it makes sense to me) to roll the 1d%(+1d10) after rounding the DC to determine %.

It's a neat idea!

[SchizofranicDM]

Before i give my idea about poisons, here's my two cents about dnd and the real world. In all reality, most people in the world would barely reach level 5. And this is not as a fighter class, or a rogue, class, but as an artisan, or an adept, or some npc class. And here's why i say, 5th level. Take the knowledge skill, for example: (DC 10) we all pretty much know about Clinton's scandel with Monica; (DC20) some people out there are knowledgable about Einstein and the ever famous e=mc^2, but not every one knows that, as great a mind as Einstein was, he was not a math wizz; (DC 25) even fewer people are aware that Joseph, the husband of Mary who is the mother of Jesus Christ, is related, albeit with a gap of many, MANY generations to Abraham; (DC 30) and even fewer still will be able to connect the name of Alexander Parkes with the first man-made plastic.
Anyway...............5th level it is.
Thus, at five level, the 5th level person would have a base fort bonus of +1. As a human, the have a base Con of a 10 giving them a +0 to their save. Given that people might have an average Con of 12 i'll use a +1 bonus for this example. So, that gives us a person with a +2 fort save. With arsenic being DC 13, that gives John Doe a 50% chance of failing his save and suffering the effects of the poison. This also gives John a 55% chances of suffering the effects of a bite from a full grown viper snake (DC 14).

Well here's my idea about making poisons a bit more realistic. let's take arsenic, for example, DC 13. simply roll a d20 and an nothing but the Con modifier. For more lethal poisons like dragon bile (DC 26), use the variant rule for critical misses and hits which states that if the roll is a natural 20, reroll and add 10 to the roll and use that total for purposes of determining success or failure. another aspect that i which to add is the fact that, even if you made the save the first time, you must continue to make saves every 50 rounds (about every 5 minute) but the DC will increase by one until you are given medical attention, via a successful heal check with an antidote or a spell (neutralize poison). i understand that checking every 5 game minutes can be a pain, but it would make sense. Just because you have saved agaisnt the poison initially does not mean it is out of your system. In this manner, poisons are lethal to characters, even higher level ones, and antidotes are given more thought over a successful fort save.

[Gamemasta]

And even fewer know how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop (DC40).

[Rintaran]

It took me roughly 1470. But I would think that it varies from person to person based on tongue size, moisture level, temperature, and ability to resist biting into it.

[SchizofranicDM]

ability to resist biting into a tootsie roll tootsie pop: Will save DC 60