[Raven Bloodmoon]

Well, since you all seemed to like the Sacred Bow so much, I just began work on the primary priest class for Shala. This one focuses primarily on healing and cleansing a person of ill effects. She has little true offensive power, though her Aura of Purity can grant her adn her allies some level of protection from tainted creatures.

I have not completed this class yet, but if you could give me an idea of whether or not this looks balanced / interesting, I'd appreciate it. I can say with certainty that the Gift of Shala will contain mostly healing/restorative spells and a couple anti-taint spells, none of which will be higher than 5th or 6th level. Beyond that, I'd love some opinions.

Purifier of Shala

[Alexis Wilke]

Raven Bloodmoon, on Feb 15 2007, 01:10 AM, said:

Purifier of Shala

My first impression is that it's too powerful. The poor Gobelins won't have a chance (again)!

Having so many special skills looks like such a priestess would become some sort of demi-God...

I would suggest more constrains in the Requirements. That could be one way to prevent just anyone from becoming such a priest. Maybe the first training is prohibitively expensive or requires some special gem or some special accomplished feat or quest. Something which really makes the character go from common mortal to that new high level priestess.

That was just my 5 cents comments... interesting reading though

[drhunter]

My first impression was opposite yours, this is no worse than a Cleric and alot worse than a Paladin. Upon further inspection, since you believed it overpowered, I still found it relatively weak, though I did find something to worry over.
First is the Aura of Purity, this is fine and dandy as a way to keep the healer protected, but I can see people sending the preistess to the front so that monsters can't get past doors and narrow passages, allowing archers to snipe them without worry. Such as the Sacred Bow.
The next thing I wonder about is the Purifying Aura, it doesn't list a range, wich leads me to believe it's only the 5 foot area around the Priestess. That's fine, but I really have no idea how this would play out. It's like a Damage version of Turning with a shorter range but longer time that it can be used. Instantly, it made me think of Holy Radiance from the Book of Exalted Deeds wich does 1d4 to undead within 10ft. In realizing that the effect of Holy Radiance is infinite, as well as they likely also have a turning ability, Purifying Aura seems weak, but again I can't say much since I haven't used it. I will always say that things look one way on paper, and are completely different in practice.
[EDIT: I also just noticed that the Purifying Aura doesn't list a type of creature that it specifically targets with the damage. I was assuming creatures with Taint, but hurting everything can be just as detrimental to your party as to your enemies. Just something that made me wonder further, can it be clarified?]

I will agree that the requirements need more. Not in order to make the class harder to obtain because it's so powerful, but just for RP. Maybe you're world doesn't require an act of faith to prove to others ones trustworth, but without having to do some holy quest I feel we lose some feeling of accomplishment. I'm a personal fan of numerical limits, such as a region can only accept 10 people to become a certain proffession. Again, that's just me.

[Alexis Wilke]

drhunter, on Feb 18 2007, 08:42 AM, said:

First is the Aura of Purity, this is fine and dandy as a way to keep the healer protected, but I can see people sending the priestess to the front so that monsters can't get past doors and narrow passages, allowing archers to snipe them without worry. Such as the Sacred Bow.

This is where a Paladin makes more sense. The Paladin would be fighting and because of his alignment, he actually could not do what you are describing without losing his "paladiness".

drhunter, on Feb 18 2007, 08:42 AM, said:

The next thing I wonder about is the Purifying Aura, it doesn't list a range, which leads me to believe it's only the 5 foot area around the Priestess. That's fine, but I really have no idea how this would play out. It's like a Damage version of Turning with a shorter range but longer time that it can be used. Instantly, it made me think of Holy Radiance from the Book of Exalted Deeds which does 1d4 to undead within 10ft. In realizing that the effect of Holy Radiance is infinite, as well as they likely also have a turning ability, Purifying Aura seems weak, but again I can't say much since I haven't used it. I will always say that things look one way on paper, and are completely different in practice.
[EDIT: I also just noticed that the Purifying Aura doesn't list a type of creature that it specifically targets with the damage. I was assuming creatures with Taint, but hurting everything can be just as detrimental to your party as to your enemies. Just something that made me wonder further, can it be clarified?]

Well... he says "a Purifier of Shala may charge her aura of purity with holy fire". So I would think that it is the whole aura which means 5ft every 2 levels. So at level 7, she can already affect a 15 feet area around herself. Here, what's not too clear to me is indeed who can be affected. This sounds like a nice ball of fire, but around yourself means on your companions too... Maybe she should have a choice between either a ball of fire as it is now or a ray of fire sent in one direction (and the length should be something like 5ft per level). Otherwise it will be difficult to use this ability! Plus, tainted creatures cannot enter this area and thus won't be affected by the fire.

In regard to clarification, examples would be handy too. For the code of conduct, for instance, how hard should the reconciliatory services be, etc.

drhunter, on Feb 18 2007, 08:42 AM, said:

I will agree that the requirements need more. Not in order to make the class harder to obtain because it's so powerful, but just for RP. Maybe you're world doesn't require an act of faith to prove to others ones trustworth, but without having to do some holy quest I feel we lose some feeling of accomplishment. I'm a personal fan of numerical limits, such as a region can only accept 10 people to become a certain profession. Again, that's just me.

Well... Paladins are not usually limited in numbers. But they do have rather "heavy" requirements.

One other thing I would like to mention... I would shift down the +1 level of spell. On level 1, I think that the new priestess will be way to busy with learning how to become a good priestess of Shala that she won't have time to learn other spells.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Thank you very much for the responces. You caught a few mistakes and omittances I made. Allow me to clarify a few things before I prod for more information.

Firstly, here is the new version.

Now, without further ado...

1) The Aura of Purity ability allows for a Will save, and not a killer one. It can never climb higher than DC 22 + Wisdom mod, and by the time you hit that, you're going to be a minimum of level 15. So by then, weak things shouldn't have the cajones to approach you and tough things should still be able to make their saving throws.

I may be willing to nerf that to "+ 1/2 Purifier of Shala level" if anyone makes a good case for it. But remember, we're only talking about going up to 10th level, here.

2) The Purifying Aura thing only affects those creatures that make their Will saves to ignore your Aura of Purity (man I need to diversify my vocabulary. Expect a name change sometime in the next couple days). At that point, any creature with a taint score (friend or foe) is affected. Again, a save is allowed, but only for half damage, and because this is divine wrath stuff, it's a Fortitude save and not a Reflex save.

3) I'll work on the requirements, though I don't think there will be any numeric thigns like you suggest. If you prove your worth to a high priestess, she'll initiate you. I left that vague for two reasons. Firstly, I have not come up with the sorts of things that a high priestess would do to an initiate. Secondly, I prefer to give the DM more room to customize things to their individual campaigns. Mine would likely be to few people's taste, I suspect.

As for quests to prove faith, these are more real world religions surrounding deities and a pantheon. You don't have to slay a dragon to become a bishop in the catholic religion; why should you if you worship Shala? It's more about being sufficiently qualified to lead your congregation and protect them. Shala is a nice goddess. Others may not be so kind....

4) With regard to using the Purifier of Shala to drive back tainted creatures, that's fine and dandy. By 10th level, the soonest you'd be able to use your aura, you should be fighting things on a level with leveled ogres (mine are smart, btw) and such, who wouldn't be very bright if they don't have a bow with them. And that aura doesn't protect against spells. So I see no problem with that being a legitimate tactic. It's fine for bullying weak creatures until their bigger brothers show up.

5) Lastly, this one confused me big time:

Quote

This is where a Paladin makes more sense. The Paladin would be fighting and because of his alignment, he actually could not do what you are describing without losing his "paladiness".

Firstly, I don't use alignment. It bugs me to no end (see my +5 holy Archon topic for more info on that one). Secondly, there are no paladins in this setting, just as there are no clerics. Each deity has its own religious followers who abide by their own deity's wishes. If they go against their deity, then bad things tend to happen to them, like losing their abilities. The Sacred Bow is free to pick off tainted creatures like that. In fact, it'd be just fine for a Sacred Bow to snipe one at night in the back while it's asleep.


Okay, now it's my turn to ask questions. Alexis, what do you find overpowered? I disagree with you, so I'd like to hear more about this, with specifics, if possible. I'd like it to be close to balanced before it gets thrown into play.

[drhunter]

I just have to say one thing for now, I belive the Aura of Purity should be 10+Priestess of Shala level+Charisma mod. Charisma, to me, is the sense of presence a person has and so should be the defining factor in creatures being repelled by your being. Wisdom is more of an awareness and understanding of your situation and suroundings.

Otherwise, I love your classes and ideas, I can't wait to see the culmination of your work.

[Alexis Wilke]

Raven Bloodmoon, on Feb 18 2007, 06:33 PM, said:

2) The Purifying Aura thing only affects those creatures that make their Will saves to ignore your Aura of Purity (man I need to diversify my vocabulary. Expect a name change sometime in the next couple days). At that point, any creature with a taint score (friend or foe) is affected. Again, a save is allowed, but only for half damage, and because this is divine wrath stuff, it's a Fortitude save and not a Reflex save.

Sorry! I missed read here. Indeed, you mention that only tainted creates are affected. Now, does it need to be fire? Could it be light instead? To me it would make more sense that something like light would not affect some creatures, whereas, fire... is usually much less selective.

Raven Bloodmoon, on Feb 18 2007, 06:33 PM, said:

3) I'll work on the requirements, though I don't think there will be any numeric things like you suggest. If you prove your worth to a high priestess, she'll initiate you. I left that vague for two reasons. Firstly, I have not come up with the sorts of things that a high priestess would do to an initiate. Secondly, I prefer to give the DM more room to customize things to their individual campaigns. Mine would likely be to few people's taste, I suspect.

Agreed. You may want to say something as you just mentioned here about the "your worth".

Raven Bloodmoon, on Feb 18 2007, 06:33 PM, said:

As for quests to prove faith, these are more real world religions surrounding deities and a pantheon. You don't have to slay a dragon to become a bishop in the catholic religion; why should you if you worship Shala? It's more about being sufficiently qualified to lead your congregation and protect them. Shala is a nice goddess. Others may not be so kind....

First of all, a quest does not need to be about slaying (thought, on the way there...) So it could be something like getting a scroll from Priestess lambda and taking it back to that one Priestess who has agreed to train you.

Now, catholic have been doing a lot of killing in the past (and some today,) but in general, to cleanse yourself, you need to do "good" things. Help poor people, pay for the church to be repaired, etc. This is a way to make sure that you are really looking into redemption or something like that. No killing involved.

Note also that does apply to all religions, except atheism. You can be an atheist and do whatever you want.

But the best is to be able to play D&D.

Raven Bloodmoon, on Feb 18 2007, 06:33 PM, said:

4) With regard to using the Purifier of Shala to drive back tainted creatures, that's fine and dandy. By 10th level, the soonest you'd be able to use your aura, you should be fighting things on a level with leveled ogres (mine are smart, btw) and such, who wouldn't be very bright if they don't have a bow with them. And that aura doesn't protect against spells. So I see no problem with that being a legitimate tactic. It's fine for bullying weak creatures until their bigger brothers show up.

The Aura of Purity, I don't mind. It does not do damage directly.

And the Purifying Aura is limited in time (1 round per level + wis mod/day). Did you just add that limit? I don't recall seeing it before.

Raven Bloodmoon, on Feb 18 2007, 06:33 PM, said:

5) Lastly, this one confused me big time:
Firstly, I don't use alignment. It bugs me to no end (see my +5 holy Archon topic for more info on that one). Secondly, there are no paladins in this setting, just as there are no clerics. Each deity has its own religious followers who abide by their own deity's wishes. If they go against their deity, then bad things tend to happen to them, like losing their abilities. The Sacred Bow is free to pick off tainted creatures like that. In fact, it'd be just fine for a Sacred Bow to snipe one at night in the back while it's asleep.

Okay... well...

The fact that there isn't any paladin in this set does not mean that you cannot base your new class on something similar which this class somewhat is for the special abilities. Now that you have shifted the spells down, it makes more sense, I'd say.

Now, I do need the alignment to resolve many situations, as the Archon situation. I would have no problem to resolve that specific situation if I know the alignment of each of my players and their followers (I do know the alignment of my monsters, duh!)

I suppose I would need to know more about the Sacred Bow and other such things to talk more about this world also...

Raven Bloodmoon, on Feb 18 2007, 06:33 PM, said:

Okay, now it's my turn to ask questions. Alexis, what do you find overpowered? I disagree with you, so I'd like to hear more about this, with specifics, if possible. I'd like it to be close to balanced before it gets thrown into play.

I think one of the problems is the healing hands. But I think it's just because you forgot to mention that she could do that only once a day and not at will. Since you need to have 8 ranks of religion knowledge and some 2nd level spell, you probably already are some character at level 3 or more before you become a Priestess of Shala. So that makes it less a problem to be more powerful to start with.

As for the Shala Gifts (I to V), you don't mention how many times they can be casted. Is that once per level each day? Is it at will?!

One thing I'd suggest, is Neutralize Poison for Shala Gifts II.

So I will revise my first impression and say that there is a few things missing to complete the class... and it will be "perfect"!

[Raven Bloodmoon]

First off, there is no alignment in Elyria. I, personally, don't need it to resolve situations. People just act in line with their motivations. If you don't think someone is acting right, then you probably don't understand their motivation. The priesthood of Shala is largely a benefiscent one that cares for the people and helps them in day to day life. They also have their darker side that hunts down and destroys any and all things tainted, as that is currently believed to be Shala's wishes. (Yeah, the gods don't just tell people what they want. That'd take all of the fun out of things.)

Secondly, the Shala's Gift spells are just considered to always be readied for casting, so a Purifier can always spend some spell points to cast any of those spells. She still readies her other spells ahead of time and Shala's Gifts do not detract from the number of spells she may ready. She can just spontaneously heal people with her chi, if she wants. And yes, I have not finished the list of spells yet, which is why I haven't finished Shala's Gifts yet. I'll probably start working on the non-1st level spells that are refered to or used by classes next.

Thirdly, it does say how often laying on hands can be used. She can use it as much as she wants until her daily alotment of healing is gone.

[super sorcerer]

I believe that the Purifier of Shala is not an overpowered class. It is way too nonoffensive for me to play so I can't tell wheather it is powerfull enough or not. A prestige class with poor BAB and very partial spellcasting must depend a lot on it's special abilities and a Purifier of Shala have fair speacial abilities so it might be powerfull enough. Since a character must have at least 12 before having a purifying aura and the damage of the aura is much less than an avarage CR12 monster can inflict in one round than I think it is not too powerfull. I agree with drhunter about using the charisma modifier instead of wisdom modifier for the DC of aura of purity and purifying aura.

Nice prestige class. Well done.