[RedSlayer]

Okay, I have Complete Scoundral on loan, and I've been reading through it.
And really, is this what the Complete line has come down to? I mean, PHB2 had better character fluff help, the PrC just aren't that interesting, entirely too much reliance on a gimmick like luck rolls, and the ambush feats are just freaking pathetic. Trading in +5d6 sneak attack to confuse a target for ONE lousy round, and they get a save at such a laughably low DC that it would be pure luck that it actually works?

The Skill Tricks are generally pretty good, but there's some stinkers in there too. Give an ally a free spot check for something that you've already seen? Last time I checked, making a spot check was a free action, as is pointing and saying "Look over there". Hence, you can give all of your allies a free spot check without having to spend skillpoints on it. Or "Listen to This" is already covered by Autohypnosis which lets you perfectly memorize pretty much anything you want, and remember it permanently, instead of just remembering a sound well enough to repeat it to others within a short time frame.

The spells are rather lacking as well. Catapult? Its Launch Bolt from Magic of Faerun with a tweak (a bad tweak, I might add). Evacuation Rune? Maybe its just the video game player in me, but "Warp to the Dungeon's Entrance" is still pretty weak for a D&D game, where you could just Teleport there, or anywhere else you wanted pretty easily. Fatal Flame? Whoopee, somebody invented Corpse Explosion from Diablo II!

Equipment is where I expected this book to shine, but its rather iffy as well. A false bottom in a freaking barrel costs 50 gp? Or a hollow book 5 gp? An entire gold to sew a freaking pocket inside of your cloak? Thats more than the cloak itself! Rules for hidden blades, here we go! No wait, the only rules here are "-2 to hit", with no advantages. Wow, you've got a knife in your armor, that counts as a dagger, that you attack with like a dagger, that does the same damage as a dagger, but you're at -2 to hit with it. What? It doesn't even give you anything like a guarenteed sneak attack with the thing. The alchemical items are nice at least, even if the prices are a little odd. 15 gp for an aspirin?

The living items are a bit more interesting, although they get rather silly. Whoo hoo, its a rust monster on a stick! Of all things, the book's only real saving grace are the premade adventure stuff, and anybody thats been around me for a while knows that I generally consider premade adventure material to be next to worthless, which says something about this book.

If there's anything I dislike about this book, its the Ninja/Fighter & Swashbuckler/Fighter feats. Other classes stacking with Fighter levels means there's no going back: They'll never make any effort, in 3E to make Fighter a decent enough option to play throughout. (Admitantly, though, I hate all of the "X class and Y class stack for blah blah" feats. )

Overall?

Despite my loathing for some parts of the book, on the whole I think I could stomach it. I think they addressed on some level the RIDICULOUS trap pricing that plagues me. Some of it made me think, a lot of it made me wince.

The skill tricks system was the gem of the book, even if I dont use *any* of them, its a new mechanic I can fiddle around in.

but still, RUST MONSTER ON A STICK?!

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Well, I haven't seen Complete Scoundrel yet, but from what you say, it sounds like WotC has followed in the footsteps of the Complete Mage quite well. They have lived down to their usual standards and I will likely pretend it never was published, if that's possible. But I need to actaully look at it first before I make this my official review. But I guess this is what I've come to expect from WotC as of late. Sad, really.

[Dthclaw]

Quote

Last time I checked, making a spot check was a free action

Only if it's reactionary; otherwise, it's a standard action, and someone trying to point it out to you normally only grants a bonus on your next attempt.

Actually, to be perfectly honest, I found Scoundrel a rather refreshing addition compared to a lot of the recent stuff. Most of the stuff works okay (even if there are a few logic problems here and there), and none of it positively screams "ABUSE ME!!!" If anything, WotC took the complete (no pun intended) opposite tack that they did with Complete Mage - they made most of it underpowered, intended more for allowing some interesting things without turning it into a rules arms-race. That, for me, was a lot of what made the book so [WOMBAT] nice.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Hmm...interesting. Now I think I will have to find a copy of this book and see for myself. Guess I'll get back to everyone on my opinion after I get a chance to look at it.

[RedSlayer]

But theres the rub. They put out such an amazingly benefitial book for casters (who rarely need a power BOOST), and then they give me THIS for my lovely little rogues? If it had been the otherway around, I would have been overjoyed- but alas, another non-magic group has gotten spat on.

Perhaps I wouldnt be so mad if Complete Psionic hadn't been such a waste, or if Complete Divine hadnt made my head hurt so much.

[Dthclaw]

Yes, but here's the difference: I'm not allowing things out of Complete Mage. I am allowing things out of Scoundrel.

Yes, they put out two books in quick succession that have wildly different power levels. But the kicker is that you get to decide IF you're going to use those books. Arcane casters may have gotten yet another ludicrous boost in published power, but if those characters aren't allowed to use material out of that book... well, that power boost is pretty [WOMBAT] meaningless, ain't it? Suddenly, the spit is looking better than oblivion... you can at least use the spit

[RedSlayer]

I suppose your points have some merit. In the end, its easier to upgrade-houserule than it is to downgrade-houserule.

Still, while you may allow things in the book, does anything jump out at you that makes you want to USE it?

From a player standpoint, the only thing that would interest me is the Trap PrC, but I dont want to play one, because rules like that should already be in effect (from a DM standpoint, generally just more stuff for me to tweak)

While I hate to use Complete Arcane as an example (it is by far the BEST of the completes, even if they have the "orb" line of spells), how MUCH of that book I wanted, hell- STILL want to use. You read the warlock- how awsome. The warmage- while weak, who doesnt love blasting stuff up? I know there were some fanboys who loved the wu-jen...

THats just the base classes- the PrC's, Feats, and Spells were all great. I want the Completes to make me want to play stuff- not make me realize what I DONT want in a game

[Raven Bloodmoon]

RedSlayer, on Feb 8 2007, 08:23 PM, said:

I know there were some fanboys who loved the wu-jen...

WOOOHOOO!!!!!

erhem...

I can see both of your points, but I have come to realize a couple of things about WotC adn DnD in general. Firstly, WotC is fantastic at coming up with thought provoking ideas, even if you don't want to use them. Reserve feats are interesting, even if they are overpowered, and I am adapting them in a way, in the Elyria setting. They're just not feats. In fact, they're combat moves, which are an amalgamation of martial moves from Tome of Battle and combat rites from Arcana Evolved.

And that brings me to the second point. We are free to do what we want with the material before us. One thing I had never considered was using warlock invocations to almost let a person cahnnel the power of a superior being, but Dragon Magic pointed out that it was an interesting prospect. Now I am examining ways in which I can use invocations not as dark rituals some weird class uses (weird in a cool way), but rather expand them and incorporate them into a number of classes so that they can serve to enhance the flavor of Elyria even more. I guess my point is, I am starting to look at these boosk not as the be all adn end all of what gaming will be but rather as the starting point from which I will embark on a journey to create a game that I and my players enjoy. It may take more work, but I think in the end it will be far more rewarding.

That's my two coppers.

[RedSlayer]

You are of course, entirely right Raven. There is practically nothing I have in my setting that wasnt houseruled a little bit. (well, actually, now that I've converted to AE, significantly less. but still...)

Mainly what I'm bitching about is the lack of general creativity and/or mechanical balance. For once, I'd like to be able to add something that I did not feel needed to be tweaked a little bit. Skill Tricks? Great idea. Reserve feats? Also great. Retraining? sounds good.

But none of it was "import here:" it was "well, that combo is broken beyond belief. This here is worthless..."

Maybe its just cause I'm lazy

[Axel]

I flipped through the book a little (as you know, I'm too stingy to buy it). I can say that there's some things in there that I'd like to implement. *Indiana Jones theme plays*
That's all any of the WotC books have, some random gimmick, and a few decent ideas that really only serve to take the pressure of a DM who already has the problem.

[ladyofdragons]

Redslayer: I loved your review! excellent and well thought out. Please consider posting it on D20FX.com

[ladyofdragons]

D20FX.com is now working again, BTW. Finally got support to fix the issue caused when they moved me to a new server.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Awesome. I may need to hop over and do a couple reviews myself.

[Tel Janin Grymm]

I have to admit I was eagerly anticipating the release of Complete Scoundrel. The expert is my favorite niche to fill in a gaming group and I expected so much more than I received when my copy arrived. I was especially disappointed in the Prestige Classes. Way too much space wasted on three different versions of basically the same class (all the skill trick-based PrCs - the tricksters) and each one is only three levels. The only 10 level (and thus potentially epic) PrC was the pseudo-paladin who can practically atone as a swift action.

The feats were tragically disappointing. I heartily agree with everything everyone else said about the ambush feats. What a waste. The luck feats were kind of interesting, but could easily be abused. At 7th level, and character taking the Fortune's Friend PrC (and the right feats) can turn a nat 1 into a nat 20 for both attacks and saves.

The skill tricks were interesting; some of them have the potential for abuse, and some just duplicate feats (giving player's a cheaper alternative for the same ability), e.g. magical appraisal = appraise magic item feat but with no cost for materials.

The spells were either lackluster to the point where they were uninteresting or practical duplicates of existing spells.

There were some equipment items that I thought were very interesting, but Dungeonscape had more and better 'scoundrel' gadgets than this book.

Overall, I thought the book was okay, but just okay. I buy all the books ('cause I'm obsessive that way and I can afford even WotC's overpriced stiff), and I'd have to rate this one a 4 outa 10.