[Dthclaw]

I was creating an NPC about a month, two months ago that was an arcane spellcaster; a Wizard, to be precise. However, there were no weapons for him that seemed suitable - he just wasn't the staff type, and the rest of simple weapons are just goofy for most characters.

What this guy needed... was a Fire Emblem style Book of Kick [CHAIR]. A magic book that acted as a weapon, dealing out all kinds of magical smack to those the caster doesn't want to waste spells on.

However, it needs to stay balanced (ie, no more damage than a greatsword; in fact, longsword would probably be the ideal max). It ought to deal different forms of 'magic' damage (heck, even random would be neat).

So... any thoughts on how to create mechanics for Exotic Weapon Proficency (Alari Tome)?

[Axel]

Weapon: Tome
It's a big heavy book. Hit them with it. It hurts. Alot.
Damage: 1d6
Type: bludgeoning

What? It's like a club!

[Dthclaw]

Sigh... I kinda meant about *magical* properties as a ranged *magic* weapon... beyond clubbing them to death with it.

[RedSlayer]

Well, a weapon that deals out magic damage is a magic item, not nessesarily a weapon.

I'm seeing something that shoots rays, dealing random magical energy damange.

Alari-Tome:
4.5 K - 5K

Using a standard action, the user of the Alari Tome can shoot a ray (can use weapon focus ray, point blank shot, precise shot, etc) as a ranged touch attack. The ray deals 1 force damage, and has one of the following properties, determined at random upon usage.

01-20% Flaming Burst
21-40% Shocking Burst
41-60% Acidic Burst
61-80% Icy Burst
81-90% Holy
91-00% Unholy

[Cuilean]

RedSlayer, on Jan 15 2007, 03:53 PM, said:

Well, a weapon that deals out magic damage is a magic item, not nessesarily a weapon.

I'm seeing something that shoots rays, dealing random magical energy damange.

Alari-Tome:
4.5 K - 5K

Using a standard action, the user of the Alari Tome can shoot a ray (can use weapon focus ray, point blank shot, precise shot, etc) as a ranged touch attack. The ray deals 1 force damage, and has one of the following properties, determined at random upon usage.

01-20% Flaming Burst
21-40% Shocking Burst
41-60% Acidic Burst
61-80% Icy Burst
81-90% Holy
91-00% Unholy

I make it a point not to put "Holy" or "Unholy" forces into the hands of arcane spellcasters.

Moreover, I think it'd be unbalancing to put such a thing into the hands of a wizard simply on the grounds that it's a unlimited-use ranged touch attack. That is, it ignores armor... a ranger in the party's going to be really ticked off that the wizard can pop ray after ray off at that plated cleric on the dais when he can't hit the unholy priest with an arrow due to the armor.

Using an item that's already in the game as a basis... a Wand of Acid Arrow... the character would be limited to 50 uses total, and already costs 4500gp. Then you've got the ability to randomly change energy types, which I think would increase the cost. If you wanted to go ahead and make it an unlimited-use item, put a limit on the number of times it can be used per day, and/or limit it to a max of 1d6 or 2d4 damage.

What level is this wizard, anyhow? This would be way-unbalancing for a 5th level wizard... I'd be mighty ticked (to use the example of the aforementioned ranger) if my 5th level ranger didn't get the ability to throw a 5d6 fireball once a day but the wizard got something that pumps out more consistent damage than my bow.

[RedSlayer]

Actually, the randomness of the energy type is a detriment.

The weapon I'm suggesting deals one point of damage, plus 1d6 energy damage. (+1d10 on critical).

The ability to do 1d6+1 damage as a standard action is pittance to casting a spell. Seriously. It's worse than casting magic missle at any level above 3.

Way unbalancing for 5th level? Id rather do 5d6 with a fireball to 3+ enemies. The currency of this game is actions. A wizard shouldn't waste his standard actions on this, there are so many other things I could do with a standard action. Combat lasts mere rounds in D&D, and I can assure you that the wizard will use this once in a blue moon.

Like you say, compare it to stuff in game. The warlock is doing 3d6 as a standard action with a ranged touch attack. This is 1/3rd of that. (the warlock is considered to be rather on the underpowered side). Think about it. This does less damage than a light X-bow! The wand of acid arrow is out of place, it does 4+ dice of damage. This does one.

Its also an energy attack. With random energy, the chance actually increases that you hit something the opponent has resistance too.

The ranger should have at least 2 attacks, with rapid shot. He should also have a x2 or x3 times the attack bonus of the wizard. (+8-9 vs +2-3?) he should also have a long-bow, which should also be enchanted. At 5th level, it could be said to definately have an enchantment. He can also shoot from x10 the distance the wizard can. So I'm seing the ranger doing a d8 + 2-3 + 1d6 on a single attack. twice that with a full attack.


So on a damage comparison, this does less damage than the crossbow, its a random energy attack, comparing it to in-game things, its behind. I would hardly call it overpowered.

edit:
BTW: suggested range is 60ft

[Raven Bloodmoon]

I'm going to totally ignore anything anyone has said in this thread and suggest this:

Book fires off magical bolts of energy of a type (either a set type for a specific book or maybe random like Dthclaw suggested). This bolt requires a ranged attack (not a touch attack) to deal damage. The damage and range increment of the book is determined by the book. the maximum range of a book is equal to five range increments.

Damage Dealt: 1d4, 1d6 or 1d8
Range Increment: 10 ft., 15 ft., or 20 ft.
Damage Type: Energy (pick one), Positive Energy or Negative Energy (pick one), or Force

Alternate statistics for desperate times: 2H melee weapon; 1d4 nonlethal bludgeoning damage; is weilded with a -4 proficiency penalty to attack rolls.

The benefit of this is that it does not doll out more damage than typical ranged weapons, has a far shorter range than most ranged weapons, and still requires a standard ranged attack. These drawbacks are offset by unlimited ammunition and damage that bypasses DR, and potentially bypasses regeneration. Furthermore, it allows the DM to create a wide variety of these books and price them as he sees fit; since no two books will liekly be the same.

[Cuilean]

Pardon the slice-and-dice, here...

RedSlayer, on Jan 15 2007, 07:40 PM, said:

Actually, the randomness of the energy type is a detriment.
...
Its also an energy attack. With random energy, the chance actually increases that you hit something the opponent has resistance too.

Only against certain foes. Your typical foe (again, at 5th level) isn't particularly resistant to any type of energy, so it doesn't really matter what kind of energy hits them. In fact, it isn't until you hit 10th or so that you regularly encounter foes that will be resistant to certain forms of damage.

RedSlayer, on Jan 15 2007, 07:40 PM, said:

The weapon I'm suggesting deals one point of damage, plus 1d6 energy damage. (+1d10 on critical).

Agreed.

RedSlayer, on Jan 15 2007, 07:40 PM, said:

The ability to do 1d6+1 damage as a standard action is pittance to casting a spell. Seriously. It's worse than casting magic missle at any level above 3.

Agreed, but the difference is that there's a limited number of magic missiles that a wizard can have memorized... a stopping point at which he must recharge. That's why their spells are more potent than the aforementioned ranger. To continue...

RedSlayer, on Jan 15 2007, 07:40 PM, said:

Way unbalancing for 5th level? Id rather do 5d6 with a fireball to 3+ enemies. The currency of this game is actions. A wizard shouldn't waste his standard actions on this, there are so many other things I could do with a standard action. Combat lasts mere rounds in D&D, and I can assure you that the wizard will use this once in a blue moon.

But the 5th level wizard gets to cast that fireball once per day. Unless you're a particularly kind DM who allows the party a full-rest period after an encounter, those "mere rounds" add up pretty quickly between rest stops, to the extent where a wizard may fall back on the book for firepower. After all... not *EVERY* spell a wizard memorizes is an evocation... and if it were, I'd be tearing the wizard a new one for neglecting the other important aspects of wizardry.

RedSlayer, on Jan 15 2007, 07:40 PM, said:

Like you say, compare it to stuff in game. The warlock is doing 3d6 as a standard action with a ranged touch attack. This is 1/3rd of that. (the warlock is considered to be rather on the underpowered side).

Haven't read up on warlocks, because I haven't played one nor been asked to have one in the party. Not going to argue something for which I don't have facts.

RedSlayer, on Jan 15 2007, 07:40 PM, said:

Think about it. This does less damage than a light X-bow!

But hits up to 14 times more often. See below, and think about it yourself.

RedSlayer, on Jan 15 2007, 07:40 PM, said:

The wand of acid arrow is out of place, it does 4+ dice of damage. This does one.

Umm... no... the wand of acid arrow does 2d4 dice of damage, with the possibility of another 2d4 ((Acid Arrow, D20 SRD)) And it's limited in charges, so someday it'll be a useless stick. But...

RedSlayer, on Jan 15 2007, 07:40 PM, said:

The ranger should have at least 2 attacks, with rapid shot. He should also have a x2 or x3 times the attack bonus of the wizard. (+8-9 vs +2-3?) he should also have a long-bow, which should also be enchanted. At 5th level, it could be said to definately have an enchantment. He can also shoot from x10 the distance the wizard can. So I'm seing the ranger doing a d8 + 2-3 + 1d6 on a single attack. twice that with a full attack.
So on a damage comparison, this does less damage than the crossbow, its a random energy attack, comparing it to in-game things, its behind. I would hardly call it overpowered.

The point is that it's a *ranged touch* attack... not a normal attack. Say the cleric on the dais across the way is wearing full plate +2, holding a tower shield. He has no Dex bonus. Thus, his full armor class (used against the ranger) is 24, while his ranged-touch armor class is 10.

The 5th level ranger (+6/+1 BAB, +3 Dex, +1 longbow) can only hit him on a 14 or better on his first attack, and only a 19+ on the second... Put a crossbow in the wizard's (+2 BAB, +2 Dex) hands, and the wizard can only hit on a natural 20.

With the book, though.. and the 5th level wizard needs... a 6. There's a serious balance issue there.

[RedSlayer]

[quote name='Cuilean' date='Jan 17 2007, 12:21 PM' post='37225']
Pardon the slice-and-dice, here...
Only against certain foes. Your typical foe (again, at 5th level) isn't particularly resistant to any type of energy, so it doesn't really matter what kind of energy hits them. In fact, it isn't until you hit 10th or so that you regularly encounter foes that will be resistant to certain forms of damage. [/qoute]

Quote

But the 5th level wizard gets to cast that fireball once per day. Unless you're a particularly kind DM who allows the party a full-rest period after an encounter, those "mere rounds" add up pretty quickly between rest stops, to the extent where a wizard may fall back on the book for firepower. After all... not *EVERY* spell a wizard memorizes is an evocation... and if it were, I'd be tearing the wizard a new one for neglecting the other important aspects of wizardry.

For sure. Which is precisely why I would hit my wizard over the head for using the [WOMBAT] book instead of casting, well, about 90 spells I can think of off the top of my head. Hmm, summon a dire tiger, or plink away for 2-7 damage?

Quote

Haven't read up on warlocks, because I haven't played one nor been asked to have one in the party. Not going to argue something for which I don't have facts.

Fair 'nuf

Two parts to this one:

Quote

But hits up to 14 times more often. See below, and think about it yourself.
Umm... no... the wand of acid arrow does 2d4 dice of damage, with the possibility of another 2d4 ((Acid Arrow, D20 SRD)) And it's limited in charges, so someday it'll be a useless stick.

Melf's acid arrow also has... 520 foot range. Thats only 8 or 9 times what I'm suggesting. Acid arrow has the same average damage as my weapon BEFORE any additional effect. But look at something more appropriate. Same cost, Wand of Scorching Ray. 4d8 right there. Ranged touch attack. At 5th level, could be doing this anywhere from 2-5 times a day.

Quote

But...
The point is that it's a *ranged touch* attack... not a normal attack. Say the cleric on the dais across the way is wearing full plate +2, holding a tower shield. He has no Dex bonus. Thus, his full armor class (used against the ranger) is 24, while his ranged-touch armor class is 10.

Well, if he's spending 6.7 K on his armor, or over 2/3rd his total wealth, he better have a big AC. (and to be honest, thats not really that big)

Quote

The 5th level ranger (+6/+1 BAB, +3 Dex, +1 longbow) can only hit him on a 14 or better on his first attack, and only a 19+ on the second... Put a crossbow in the wizard's (+2 BAB, +2 Dex) hands, and the wizard can only hit on a natural 20.

Well, lets up the attack bonus with gloves of dexterity, so we have +11, add in point blank shot for +12, so that cuts it to about 50%.

Quote

With the book, though.. and the 5th level wizard needs... a 6. There's a serious balance issue there.

Thats the thing though. A wizard should not recieve this item till level 8, at least. (you know, "no item that costs more than 10% of the wealth by level tables"....). Even so, no wizard in their right mind would:

a) be in 60 ft of the enemy, if possible
waste an action for a piddling 2-7 damage instead of casting a spell
c) see "B" again.


Alright, maybe I'll give you the cleric bit. Now, if the enemy: has conceilment, is not within 60 ft (flying, ranged attacker, etc), has any kind of dex bonus, is a swarm, is etherial, has any kind of deflection bonus, has the most basic of energy resistance spells, a spellcaster, is in melee, has anyone in front of him, has cover, or hell, has more than 1 HD, then the effectiveness of this weapon goes down the drain. Fast. I'm not saying that ranged touch attacks arent nice- they are. But they are generally situational, generally have to be done at a significant range, and generally have to do some beefy damage.

This item is flavorful and fun. It will not have any game impact because casters would practically never use it, and its damage is less than that of a basic, simple weapon. How often does your wizard use his crossbow?

[Cuilean]

Quote

This item is flavorful and fun. It will not have any game impact because casters would practically never use it, and its damage is less than that of a basic, simple weapon. How often does your wizard use his crossbow?

Actually.. my wizard's an elf, so uses a longbow. ::Coughs:: And decidedly more often than one might think, since after the third combat of a day, I'm running a little low on evocation spells thanks to using up slots for important things like Knock, Displacement, See Invisibility...

As far as it doing less damage.. I respectfully disagree... because a 1d8 weapon that misses 95% of the time does zero damage 95% of the time, while a 1d6 + 1 weapon that misses only 25% of the time does at least two damage 75% of the time.

I think it *will* have a game impact, but that might be a different play style talking. I was just saying that it should be balanced in comparison to other items the character might have available to him --- what would he carry if he *couldn't* have the book?

There is a side point... that wands are limited by the number of times they can be used, and unless they were created by the wizard, there's no guarantee that they were full when found. It doesn't take too many five round combats to blow through fifty charges. Compare that to an inexhaustible book.

[Cuilean]

Cuilean, on Jan 17 2007, 03:02 PM, said:

As far as it doing less damage.. I respectfully disagree... because a 1d8 weapon that misses 95% of the time does zero damage 95% of the time, while a 1d6 + 1 weapon that misses only 25% of the time does at least two damage 75% of the time.

Oh... and because using the book is a standard action, the wizard can move and fire at the same time, unlike the load and fire while 5-foot-stepping that a crossbow.

[RedSlayer]

Well, I tell you one thing, I would rather have a "Head band of Intellect +2" than this thing. Easy.

But heres the thing. Like you say, a weapon that deals at least 2-7 damage 75% of the time, its pretty accurate.

But it has no Impact.

Even if we used 5th level as a guideline (at least 3 levels lower than recommended), it still has no impact.

Spellcasters on the whole: their power comes from the ability to turn the course or even end a combat with a single spell. From levels 1-20. "From color spray" and "sleep" to "Gate" and "Time Stop".

This is what I mean by impact. 2-7 damage is great from levels 1-3. Well, maybe 3. After that, its really just a waste. Direct Damage one of the least effective ways to attack somebody. You delt 4 damage to the ogre? woopie. I'd rather charm him.

Sure, I suppose if your foe is supressed you could plink away at him. But theres the thing. They're supressed because you laid down something like hold person, and then the fight is over anyway. 2-7 damage a round will NEVER win any fight. Thats what spell casters do, they lay down amazing effects that end combats and encounters, and they can do it often. Thats what the game's tactics are based on.

Conclusion: this weapon is not uber-powerful because it has no impact. Its not a weapon, so it can't be enchanted. It really does not have much effectiveness past even level 5, and its recommended for level 8's. Honestly, I would use one for a little while, but I would easily pass it up for even just a regular ole +2 INT item.

Maybe it is difference in play style. More than 3 combats in a day seems a bit hack and slash for me.


*Taking a look at your average CR 5-6 monster, I see a pretty steady AC range of 15-19. That ranger is looking pretty good, I think.

[Cuilean]

Jumping back to Dth's OP... Salient points of this discussion:
* First and foremost: He wants a magical ranged weapon. For a wizard, he specified, but that's not really that important. It doesn't matter that he's a wizard and can cast three magic missiles, two acid arrows, and a lightning bolt... the point was that this is to be used INSTEAD of spells. There are reasons for that, I'd assume, so disregard the fact that he has any spells at all!

* He didn't specify what level the character was, and this is perhaps the second biggest reason for the debate between you and I.

* My original reply was that the weapon you'd described, Red, was overpowered for a 5th level character.. and that's still the case, for the reasons I've described. A 5th-level <WHATEVER> with that book can still outdamage a 5th-level ranger in ranged combat simply because they hit more often. When a generalist can outperform a specialist, you have a balance problem.

* Pretend that all other courses of action are exhausted: I was stating that whatever he makes should be in line with other items that the character *could* have in that situation. And this book against a light crossbow is not an even fight in most situations.


Sidebar, for a completely different discussion: No more than three fights in a day? How could you handle a lair of... well, just about anything that reacts to the fact that Fritz was on guard duty, and when his relief arrives, he isn't there?

[darn6766]

If you want a weapon like that try this template

Tome Name: ex.(weak fire)
Weight: ex.(3lb)
Charges: (50)
Language: (Draconic)
Spells:

:Burning hands- 1 charges
:Flaming sphere- 5 charges
:Scorcing ray- 10 charges
:Fireball- 15 charges

Thats just a template and example. Fell free to warp it and twist it as you wish.