[dragonhand777]

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I like inventing my world from scratch (I consider published materials near cheating) and I don't like having WotC or anyone else tell me what to incorporate in my world.

I understand that. But I fail to see how that can't be done with 3rd ed. This may be do to the fact that when I was playing 2nd ed. I didn't concern myself with the rules as much (I just trusted in the DM and his knowledge and desicions). However, I'm creating a world from scratch and the only source books I have are 3rd ed. (I lost what few 2nd ed. books I had). So far things are looking good.

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I supose it's a to each their own scenerio.

Yup.

[Axel]

my problem is that 3rd assumes that you'll be doing everything their way. 2nd just strikes me as so much more versatile, 3rd presents you with too much junk that limits what you can do if you use it. I mean sure we all know the first rule of dnd is all rules are optional, but still why do they give you all this [BROWNIES] anyhow?

[Rintaran]

They give it for the newbies. The youngun's just barely of age to start playing. The people who have been playing only CRPGs and have never learned what a real RPG is supposed to be like. We're talking the computer generation here, it's a sad and deplorable position that afflicts the topmost leaves of the role-playing tree, thrusting role-playing into the acidic vat of roll-playing. As times change, so must the gaming systems or they will be left behind to rot. This is why they try to include everything a roll-player might need, and why the skilled role-player must carefully tread the quicksand in order to instill in the rotting mind of the computer generation what real role-playing is about. If skilled roleplayers, like yourself or any number of others on this site, refuse to learn the new rules and help train the roll-players into becoming proper role-players, what true hope is there for the future of game?

[Hida Gabriel]

I'm guessing they don't assume everyone is a veteren player, and someone might need to know the basics.

That was me BTW. I had no clue untill I sat down and read the [WOMBAT] books cover to cover. I'm still learning new things all the time.

Gabriel

[Doomdreamer]

Btw, I love moduals, not to play or run, but to read them. I love The Temple series. and have all the ravenloft old adventures. *sigh* Nostalgia. Um, both systems are extremely pliable because they are written down and you play from a book, so if you don't like a rule you can ignore it or put a post-it note over it. (Post-it notes are copy righted but I don't care, you ain't getting any of my precious gp). But Rintaran is right when it comes to the reasons why our games are the way they are. If you want the pen-ultimate (or horrific) roleplaying experience, try live action roleplaying. I am a member of a few and sometimes you get to only roleplay, not a single combat to seen.

Well anyways. I'd love to argue some more, but, well, There isn't much to argue about.

[ladyofdragons]

hmm.

I like 3E. I like 3.5E even more since it's cleaned up some stuff. But then, I'm not a rules lawyer, and I've been playing long enough to know what I like and what works for me. I take what I like, I change what I don't. To me there's plenty of room in 3E to do exactly that. Heck, with all the freaking D20 and OGL sourcebooks out there, there's a whole universe of variability in play, just based on what you do or do not use/allow in your campaign.

I'll agree with the opinion that CRPGs are warping the view of younger generations toward roleplaying. But I think that's to be expected. I mean, there's no way for me to compare Zork to D&D. But today there's NWN and BG and a host of anime-styled fantasy CRPGs where the only thing you really do is move and fight, and occasionally listen to some NPCs schpiel. It's almost like playing a roleplaying game, except that you're not roleplaying. To misquote hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, it's almost entirely unlike roleplaying.

More and more people are moving toward having their first roleplaying experience in a chatroom or online tool, which really doesn't help them get a clear picture of what RPGs are all about. I generally try to combat the apathy toward roleplay of newbies by pointing them toward great examples of play, places to find local roleplaying opportunities, etc. I've helped many newbies learn the true depths of roleplaying, and I'll fight the good fight till the end.

[Gamemasta]

Well spoken
She-who-is-of-large-reptilian-fire-breathing-beasts
"I propose a toast to the enlightenment of newbies, the patience it takes, and the fruitful rewards upon achievement!"

[Hida Gabriel]

newbies taste like chicken.

[Axel]

I don't care why the rules are poorly written, I just know they are. I play second edition and if the bloody noobs don't like it they can play somewhere else. I'm too cheap to spring for supplements so if the hardcore gamers don't like that they can find another DM. To use a famous misquote:
I may not know gaming, but I know what I like.

[dragonhand777]

Ok, Axel, it seems you're pretty set on where you stand. You have my best wishes. In a way its kinda cool that you're so die-hard 2nd ed. and there's nothing wrong with that. I just really hope your group feels the same way. I love dnd-1st ed, 2nd ed, 3rd ed, I love it all. It's a really cool creative outlet.

Over a year ago-over a time span of six months or so, I would go to one of the dnd/comicbook stores near by and get together w/ some folks I hardly knew to play Warcraft (every wed. the store hosted several games-Magic the Gath., Poekemon [for the tikes] etc.). And every other week it seems there were people comming in and selling thier 2nd ed materials to the store owner. He never put that stuff on the shelf. (I kick my self now for not asking and offering to buy any from him.)

2nd ed was when I really began to love the game, and its cool to know there are still people playing it.

oh, and everything tastes like chicken.

[Axel]

egh... I hate chicken

[blacxthornE]

Well, i posted this to another forum, but still, let's congratulate and welcome three chickens that were converted out of the real world and joined ours. I'm training three guys nowadays.

3.5E is nice. I think scratching those class-specific skill stuff was a right decision, since most of them were of rogues and they were not really so complicated for others. It's logical that a ranger try to give a secret message to a fella. Why should that be specific for a rogue, right?

Now they're included in other free-for-all skills. And I think this helps role-play more than it does roll-play, since you can use your skills in wider ranges. (Rintaran, backup!)

[Rintaran]

I'd back you up if I could, but I play 3.0. I've refused to give WOTC any more of my money when they decided to rob people with version 3.5. I had already spent nearly $1k Canadian on manuals and whatnot and wasn't about to throw all that on the trashheap because they decided to go and change the base rules again. I did that when I traded up from 2E, I wasn't about to do it again. Maybe in 10-15 years when 4E comes out I might consider it. Who knows, I may even get the opportunity to teach my future children the game (bliss or hell, you decide).

Whether opening up the skills to all classes would promote role-play over roll-play, I'm not sure. For some of them, the psion/psychic warrior only skills, it's just plain wrong, but then they're a special case anyways. As for the others, I would have to test. Read lips, definately. Disarm traps, not so much. Use Magic Item, I really don't think so. I'd list the other skills and my opinions, but as I'm in the middle of moving at the moment, my books are packed up (that's why I've been pretty quiet the past couple of days).

[sparxmith]

Ach! Hans run its the Lhurgoyf!

This ugly beast rearing its head again.

Lets face it. Everybody in the world can find something to complain about with 3.0. I played AD&D a couple of times, but only after I played V:tM for a couple of years. AD&D was terrible compared to V:tM. The oppurtunities for role-playing were negligible compared to the role playing in Vampire. After enough sessions to learn the system, I quit, went back to playing Vampire, and swore never to touch that crappy system again.

Fast forward to 3.0. A friend of mine bought the books and proceeded to bug the hell out of me until I tried the new system. I finally relented. Since then, 3.x, has become my favorite system. It's a vast improvement of 2.0. There's a lot more freedom. Now you design a person, and fit a class around that idea. Before you took a class, and you had to build your person around that.

It's not flawless. No gaming system is. But if you think it's a waste of money, sell me your books. I've always got people wanting to buy them on the cheap.

Also, you might want to consider the words of A Silent Wail:

My hate of d02 know no limit!


Truer words have never been spoken. =-)