[Keth Durgan]

So I'm working on my cosmology, and I had the thought of making one of the deities on my campaign a sort of plane creator. For those who don't remember, all the deities in my world were once mortals, so much of their power comes from the "normal" sources, and the divine stuff augments it.

I was thinking about basing it off the Planeshifter class in Manual of the Planes, but probably having that as a prereq (something like "Must have reached level 10 in the Planeshifter PrC"). I want this to be someone who is well beyond 30-40th level, probably in the CL 45-50 range to start off.

They would be the sculptors who keep the planes as they are, creating new planes and destroying those that become so unstable as to threaten other planes' very existence. Obviously, there won't be many of these (considering the tough requirements and extremely high level), so I don't think that will be an issue here.

Any ideas on where to start for other abilities? Should this be a 5 or 10 level class?

[Dthclaw]

Wow. Uh, frankly, without a better idea of what scope of power you're expecting from a CL 45 character in your campaign, I would say go all out with the abilities.

Maybe do some crazy epic version of the Planeshifter?

[RedSlayer]

Honestly, I wouldnt even bother with a PrC. That would just feel like I was messing around with mechanics for no good reason. If they are that high, why not make whatever abilites the PrC would get Salient Divine ones? Or hell, do away with the rules entirely. Unless your PC's are *close* to fighting something at that level, I'd stay away from putting it together.

Thats just me tho.

If you are hardcore set on a PrC, I'd make it 5 or even 3 (i.e. Wayfarer Guide). I cant see THAT high a level character giving up very many regular levels for that.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Well, for those of us concerned with roleplaying, choosing classes has little to do with the best application of those levels we gain, so I would say to make it as many levels as you feel appropriate. After all, if a character wants to manipulate the planes themselves, she isn't going to ask herself it she would be better suited to go level dipping into barbarian for some extra hit points. That's just silly and not very much fun, if you ask me.

As for abilities, I would start off by allowing them to change the landscape in a 1-mile per level radius. Should also be able to grow existing planes larger and forge connections betwen planes without even really thinking. Eventually move into a way to dissolve planes, transplant part of one plane into another, perhaps some really god-like stuff like being able to completely control the weather on a plane.

As for prerequisites, I wouldn't state outright that you need 10 levels of planeshifter. That closes too many doors. I would start off, however, with requiring the ability to create a demiplane, either by spell or spell-like ability. Also, some means by which to alter phsyical features might make a nice prerequisite (again by spell or otherwise). Obscene ranks in Knowledge (planes) is a good way to force it up to a minimum level; perhaps set it as minimum 50 ranks.

You have an interesting idea, albeit stupily powerful. I'd say go for it if that is what you are looking for. Might prove interesting and feel free to post yoru progress. We love to help out.

[RedSlayer]

For those who really care about roleplaying, they dont have classes at all. In fact, they dont have rules. When designing a class, I dont give two hoots about RP. I strive for mechanical balance only.

It has nothing to do with "level dipping." At epic levels, that concept is as stupid as it is pointless. With epic levels, you get epic bonus feats, which are worth a hell of a lot more than any non-epic class level. Consider this:

Shaping planes is already capable with epic spellcasting. Hell, you can already create a demiplane with the 9th level spell, Genisis. With characters like you have at such high a level, spellcasters could create these planes with only a little bit of effort, and they dont have to give up any of there spellcasting power on useless class levels.

Since this is obviously directed at classes that DONT have spellcasting, you need to pack in as much power as possible with as little levels, if this class is going to look worthwhile to characters of such power. It may look rediculous, but characters of this level, with a little work and some proper planning can take down dieties (as stated in various splatbooks. why they didnt include epic rules? OGL has something to do with it. but, I degress.)


I agree and kind of disagree with Raven. Knowedge (planes) sounds like it is a good idea, but it is not a class skill for all but the spellcasting classes, which can do this anyways.

If you wanted it to be a caster class, than all the more reason to be 5 (better yet, 3) levels. All you'd really need to do is pack in things that reduce the spellcasting cost (or increase effectiveness) of spellcasting with the (Creation) seed, with respect to creating planes.

However, if this was ment to be more diety specific, then I shall say again to do away with the idea of a class entirely and simply give dieties with the appropriate stats/reasons/will the ability to do so.

[Vaskre]

Personally I'd make it a ten level class, simply because that reflects the amount of study and power it takes to advance in something like that.

[RedSlayer]

*deleted for pointlessness and OT*

[Keth Durgan]

Basically what I have in mind is something along the lines of near-deity level planar maniplulation, but with the potential for high level, very long-lived characters to sort of maintain the planes. Yes, it's likely that some of these plane shapers may eventually become low level deities, but they may simply focus on their task.

The story behind them is that the plane shapers are individuals who keep the planes in such a state that they don't collide or fade from existence. Some plane shapers form entire new sets of sub-planes, blending the traits of two other planes to create the new one. Some examples of these planes are Ash (Fire & Negative), Decay (Wood & Negative), Diamonds (Earth & Positive), Lightning (Air & Positive), Radiance (Fire & Positive), Salt (Water & Negative), Sand (Earth & Negative), Steam (Water & Positive), Vacuum (Air & Negative), and Vigor (Wood & Positive).

When a plane becomes unstable, for whatever reason (major magic battle, some sort of planar rift getting out of control, etc), the plane shaper can form a new version of the plane, moving any possible inhabitants over, and then he can aid the unstable plane in its self destruction. In this way, he keeps the overal stability of the cosmology intact.

So, yeah.... I hope that helps explain a little further where I'm going. One of the reasons I was thinking about having this be a post-Planeshifter class was the Planeshifter's ability to create a demi-plane. The limit there, however, is that the shifter can only have a single plane at a time. But they do get limited control over other planes, which is what gave me the idea for this PrC. Also, where is the Genesis spell? I checked in the SRD and both Manual of the Planes and Planar Handbook, but couldn't find it.

I like some of the ideas being presented here. I'm still up in the air about how I want to do this. I'm leaning towards making it a 10-level class, but am still way open to suggestions.

[Greg Swifthands]

Try the spell Compendium, but the only Genesis I know of is a 9th Level Shaper Power, that is turned into AntiGenesis when casted on a location on the Material plane.

I don't remember it stating in the XPH that there was a spell similar. So it is also possibly in one of the other Magic Supplements.

OKay, I just quickly went through my XPH, I think this is where it was first introduced... it is on pages 109 and 110 of Expanded Psionics

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Uh....Genesis is a 9th level spell presented in a few books, but I believe it originally appeared in Deities & Demigods as the 9th level spell for the Creation Domain. Any book that has the Creation Domain will have or reference the Genesis spell.

[RedSlayer]

It was actually an epic level spell in 3.0, then given to the creation domain as 9th level in Dieties and Demigods, as Raven Stated. Psionics got it last, as a 9th level power.

So if you want genisis, you have to go cleric, go epic, or go psionics. W00t for psionics!!!

[Keth Durgan]

I like the spell and the psionic power. I think they can play well with what I'm intending to do. All of these (the spell, power, and Planeshifter ability) are quite limited in their scope. Here's a very rough sketch of what I have in mind so far:

The Plane Shaper
Level...BAB...Fort...Ref....Will...Special.......Spellcasting
1.......+0....+0.....+0.....+2.....No idea yet...+1 level of existing class
2.......+1....+0.....+0.....+3...................+1 level of existing class
3.......+1....+1.....+1.....+3...................
4.......+2....+1.....+1.....+4...................+1 level of existing class
5.......+2....+1.....+1.....+4...................
6.......+3....+2.....+2.....+5...................+1 level of existing class
7.......+3....+2.....+2.....+5...................
8.......+4....+2.....+2.....+6...................+1 level of existing class
9.......+4....+3.....+3.....+6...................
10......+5....+3.....+3.....+7...................+1 level of existing class

I'm still working on the abilities, but I think they'll have to do with giving the shaper more control over the planes, including size and whatnot.

Comments/suggestions?

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Keth Durgan, on Sep 20 2006, 11:19 PM, said:

No idea yet

I think that is the best quote I've seen on here in a long time. I love it. Well, I already tossed out some ideas. Altering and manipulating the plane's geometry, characteristics, traits, terrain, weather, composition, etc. Moving planes, growing new planar connections, closing planar connections, merging planes, splitting planes, cut/paste/crop/zoom...err...sorry. Was thinking of Campaign Cartographer.

[Keth Durgan]

Well, I didn't quite mean "No idea yet", but it was easier than saying "I have too many ideas and I need to figure out how to cram them all into a single 10-level, uber epic PrC)".

One thing I want to avoid is the possibility of two of these just having a field day messing with a plane. Perhaps having some sort of attunement, where the shaper must spend a certain amount of time on a plane or something in order to make the changes he wants to make.

Though, that could open up whole new types of mage battles. Imagine where, instead of attacking your opponent, you simply turn the ground under him into a swirling pool of lava and increase the gravity by a hundred times..... (evil thoughts).

Anyways, I'm still working out how to get the abilities in there in such a way that they make sense, aren't too crazy powerful, and aren't too weak for an epic class along these lines.

[Dthclaw]

As a note, Keth, epic PrCs do not gain BAB or base save increases Nothing does after 20

Although it seems you're coming up with ideas, which is good.