[Dthclaw]

Okay, so I was sitting down with a combination of problems

1- Forums seem sooooo dead recently
2- I'm rather disappointed with the distinction between casters and noncasters and I want to try some freaky combination of the two.

So, because of these two facts, and because I have become rather obsessed with point-based systems and customization, what I'm proposing is a new base class, the Mannacant. The basic gist: a class with access to leveled 'spheres' of abilities. Each sphere is, depending on the spheres chosen, magic or fighting based, granting spell-like abilities or special fighting abilities. I really don't know how to describe it better than that.

As an example, let's say a 1st level Mannacant chooses a Death sphere at 1st level. They get the associated Death sphere ability for the first sphere. The next time they're granted a sphere, they can go deeper in the Death spheres (perhaps a branching tree of abilities) or start with another sphere. Presently, I'm thinking that ~50% of spheres will be special qualities/special abilities granted to the Mannacant (think Elemental Savant or Green Star Adept), the remainder spell-like abilities or special attacks (perhaps like a Warlock?).

Any ideas on spheres and creating balanced trees and class progression would be nice. As is, I just have the class idea. With some help, can probably get an outline thrown together.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Okay, guess my first comment is that I am glad to see something of this nature coming up. I really like such ideas and have been toying around with a few royally whacked magic ideas myself (of the sort that would make many members' heads implode). So, here is my input on this class, bearing all in mind.

Firstly, great idea. Modular class that combines combat with magic and doesn't greant 10 1st level spells per day in armored casting like a certain recently released class in the PHB2. Secondly, a good source of inspiration for a possible way to set up this class is the Shadowcaster from the Tome of Magic. It uses "paths" to describe how you can study and progress.

Some ideas for spheres might be Aeromancy, Aquamancy, Cryomancy, Electromancy, Geomancy, Necromancy, Nocturnmancy, Phonomancy, Potomancy, Pyromancy, Virtiolomancy. Uh, non-magical ideas ight include spheres of Precision, Power, Subtlty, Misdiretion, and Defense. I need a better idea of just what sort of thing is in your mind, but I'll give ya what i can think up.

[Dthclaw]

Um... gonna have to explain some of them later 'mancies'

[JosephBlackly]

I too was worried about the current state of the forums... Particularly because I personally have absolutely nothing better to do and so check them often. But this is off-topic.

Anyway, I think the first thing that needs to be done it to scale how often these "spheres" are gained. Do you gain a power every level? Probably not. That would lead to a whole helluva lot of abilities to write on a character sheet.

Another question is whether the spheres branch or are linear. Linear would be very easy to build, but lacks modulation... Is modulation a word? Whatever, you know what I mean. If they do branch, how will it be scaled? Perhaps each of the spheres starts as a simple special quality and branches to either magic (spell-like ability) or physical (special attack). In this system, they could cross over at later levels and create abilities that are both physical and magical in nature; such as Smite attacks, or spell-like or supernatural abilities that augment your weapon, armor, or person.

Can you combine spheres? Sure you can take more than one, if I read that right, but what about fusing two or more together? Using Raven's examples, suppose someone took Pyromancy and Necromancy. Is there any way to gain abilities that utilize both spheres, like shooting some kind of negative fire thing? ...That would probably take too much work.

What are we talking about for the basics? Probably d6 or d8 hit dice for a magic-using warrior type. BAB progression of a cleric/rogue, or full-on fighter? Saves? Skills? Lots of work to do still. But I suppose the ability spheres are the most important part (read "hardest to do").

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Modular class that combines combat with magic and doesn't greant 10 1st level spells per day in armored casting like a certain recently released class in the PHB2.

...I was wondering about that one myself, actually.

[Dthclaw]

Jeez. Basics. Shoulda posted that to begin with.

I'm currently thinking d6 HD, 4 skill points/level, cleric attack, probably 2 good saves (though I can't quite decide which should get the short end of the stick). Maybe go with Red's idea for a medium progression for all three?

After some talk with Raven last night, I started to get a better picture in my mind about ability progression.

I'm thinking that I'll probably go with this for the sphere progressions: each arch-sphere will have nine tiers available, and each tier will have three abilities that can be gained: a combat-ability, a special attack (well, things that fall into special attacks on a stat block), or a special quality. Each tier will be available at the same time as a sorc of the Mannacant's level would gain their first spell of that level. And you can't gain a sphere ability of a certain tier without having at least one ability from each lower tier in that arch-sphere.

As for progression, I'm thinking one sphere ability per level. Now, before I go any further, let me explain why such a seemingly overpowered choice - most of the abilities are latent, creating subtle changes in a character's abilities (until upper tiers; more on that lower). Comparing what I have in mind with the warlock, which is the closest existing class I can think of, it isn't any more powerful than that. Consider: the Mannacant, by 20th level, will have 20 abilities gained from this class. The warlock, by comparison, gets a total of 19 abilities - some of them incredibly powerful, far more than what the Mannacant will probably get.

I'm also toying with the idea of some sort of special arch-sphere for levels where the Mannacant gains an ability increase. Just toying with it, but still...

Upper tiers are where the more powerful abilities are going to be. These are things like changing a character's type, granting some really nice special qualities, or more powerful spell-like abilities (probably not as strong as some of the Warlock's upper levels, but close). For example, I'm thinking that upper tier Hydromancy abilities might include things like extended reach, Liquid Body (as the Waterveiled Assassin from MM4), or an Elemental Transformation. Mid-level abilities might include things like drench or some [water] spell-like abilities. Low-level might be as basic as granting a scaling swim speed.

[Keth Durgan]

I think this is a very interesting concept. To me, it sort of reminds me of the Diablo II skill system. Everybody starts out with certain things, and you can branch out as you go or choose another line to start/expand upon.

You could probably do three different Mannacant-type classes. One that has spheres focusing on the physical side (fighter BAB), one that is blended (rogue BAB) and one that gets slightly more powerful magical attacks (sorc BAB). Each one could use some similar abilities and spheres from the other two, but that way there's still a fundamental division even at the outset.

I'd love to see this fleshed out some more with some tiered abilities added.

[Dthclaw]

Well, this is what I have so far. Obviously, still needs quite a bit of stuff.

I like the idea of three 'forms' of Mannacant, but unfortunately it just seems like a lot more work to come up with three similar yet different classes at the moment. I suppose that if someone wanted to do a variant Mannacant with different sphere progression rates, it would be fine, but I think I should finish this version before contemplating others

Any ideas on spell-like abilities or other special features would be appreciated. I'm trying to keep it at one spell-like (or similar) ability, a combat-related ability, and a statistic changing/special quality-related ability per sphere level.

I'll worry about specific mechanics of abilities later; just basic ideas for now would help a lot.

[Edit]: Maybe the first sphere chosen should affect which saves get the good progression?

[Raven Bloodmoon]

To answer the first question:

Photomancy - magic affectign light
Phonomancy - sound magic
Vitriolomancy - acid magic (much like acid rock, but with fewer cute hippy girls)
Nocturnmancy - magic of darkness
Pyromancy - what Woe often calls the "nuclear bomb of the dark ages"

Perhaps here would be a good chance to almost make something of an intra-multiclassign thing. Perhaps each sphere has a BAB adn Save progression attached to it. Each level, you pick a sphere, and you gain the benefits of however many levels you have in that sphere?

[RedSlayer]

Upon initial inspection, I like the concept. A few things to consider:
1. While browsing the current spheres, I couldnt help but feel that it should be divided into two different classes with similar abilities. What I invision would be something along the lines of an "Elementalist" class, with abilites as given in the current manacant version. You'd have your (to use raven lingo) gomancy, areomancy, pyromancy, and aquamancy spheres, with corresponding abilites.
The second class I invision would involved more Arcane Magic at its sorces, and the spheres would deal in schools or subschools of magic. Before you say specialist wizard, they would have a number of other things that would be assosiated with them.
2. Recently I've had a bit of a hard on for Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, just absolutely adore the system they have in place, and upon seeing this, could not but help think of the Champion class. Or, if you look down another street, the Ardent outta Complete Psionic. Have you looked down those roads for inspiration?
3. Like the idea, again, and might type up a few things for it if ya'd want, just some general sphere ideas.

yah, thats all for now.

[Dthclaw]

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1. While browsing the current spheres, I couldnt help but feel that it should be divided into two different classes with similar abilities. What I invision would be something along the lines of an "Elementalist" class, with abilites as given in the current manacant version. You'd have your (to use raven lingo) gomancy, areomancy, pyromancy, and aquamancy spheres, with corresponding abilites.
The second class I invision would involved more Arcane Magic at its sorces, and the spheres would deal in schools or subschools of magic. Before you say specialist wizard, they would have a number of other things that would be assosiated with them.

Ya know, I actually did consider having spheres based on the schools of magic. Decided I was shooting for something more atypical (for lack of better word). I dunno; I'll think about it.

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2. Recently I've had a bit of a hard on for Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, just absolutely adore the system they have in place, and upon seeing this, could not but help think of the Champion class. Or, if you look down another street, the Ardent outta Complete Psionic. Have you looked down those roads for inspiration?

Gah. Didn't even think about the Ardent. Thanks, mon; I'll take another look at it, see if it helps.

[Dthclaw]

Well, a little further along on constructing the class.

Next release will incorporate a vastly different BAB and save scheme than the current version. Basically going with Raven's idea on pseudo in-class multiclassing.

Talking with Raven has led to ideas on other arch-spheres; if anyone has a favorite "element" (classical, Eastern, esoteric, whatever), feel free to post ideas on alternative spheres (and include some ideas on abilities, please).

Any ideas on fleshing out the arch-spheres would be appreciated. Generally, for spell-like abilities I put them at least a level above their normal level.

Thanks to anyone out to help.

[Edit]: Added the BAB and save scheme and updated.

[JosephBlackly]

I want in on this action, DthClaw. One thing I need, though, before I can help... An at least short description of some of those abilities. I mean, the spell-like abilities are easy enough to look up, but things like "Dark Herald" or "Pure Light" need a little explination. I just don't want to overlap abilities you probably already have in there somewhere.

If you need a hand with any of the spheres, then by all means give me a shout. I've got a few ideas for the mannacant, but I don't know what's already there.

[Dthclaw]

Yeah, sorry, hadn't gotten around to ability write-ups. Here's a quick-and-dirty.

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If you need a hand with any of the spheres, then by all means give me a shout. I've got a few ideas for the mannacant, but I don't know what's already there.

Whatcha see in the last posted version is what I have. So by all means, let 'er rip.

[JosephBlackly]

I'm a bit slow on the draw... By about a week.

I haven't been doing much of anything D&D related lately because I'm in the midst of moving to almost the other side of the country. I have plenty of ideas for the class, but have yet to get them on paper, or at least '.DOC' or '.TXT'. I figure I can get them down and you could figure out where they might go sphere-level-wise.

On a side note, I don't know if it's just me, but some of the powers already there seem... Buff. Maybe not overpowering, but pretty [WOMBAT] buff. I know I'm not good at arguing (see my "Warlock" post), so unless anyone else has anything to say about it I'm just talking to myself. If I have pointed out the obvious, any overpowerment can be easily rectified by scaling the ability/abilities over several levels... But I won't bother doing that unless there is need for it. I'm pretty tired right now...

I'll get back to you on this later. Right now, I'ma lie down.

[Dthclaw]

Yeah, some of the abilities are really strong; I'm probably going to make every ability scaled to the number of spheres in a particular arch-sphere later, but any specific suggestions would help.