[Oneiros]

So, for various reasons in my campaign, I want to take the automatic-ness out of crafting magic items to some degree. Just because you have feat X and know spell Y, doesn't neccessarily mean you can automatically create a permanent item based on the spell. The spell itself is just an ingredient, the feat just the general know-how. To actually make a particular item, you have to have a specific set of instructions, called a formula.

One of the things this does is make magic item "shopping" a little more iffy. Not every wizard's college will know how to make boots of speed, not every clerical temple will have someone who can create a ring of protection.

Here's how the basic system works:

Oneiros said:

The base percentage chance that an appropriate organization, such as a wizard’s guild, has a copy of the required formula for a particular item, is equal to 65 - [minimum caster level of highest prerequisite spell x 5]. In the absence of prerequisite spells, use the item’s caster level. The base chance is then modified as follows:

-

• Organization’s area of focus is related to item: +10 (You need to go to the right people to find some things, especially clerical items)
  
  
• Organization has specialized library related to item: +[Size Bonus x 5] (Still working on rules for libraries. Assume a +0 to +5 bonus range.)
  
  
• Organization is not a wizard order: -10 (This reflects the bonus craft feats a group of wizards are more likely to have)
  
  
• Organization has no caster with sufficient level: -[5 x caster level difference]
  
  
• Individual, not organization: -10
  
  
• Item is from non-DMG source: -10
  
  
• Non-DMG Craft Item Feat required -10
  
  
• Item is a potion: +10
  
  
• Item is a wand or staff: +5
  
  
• Item is healing/curative in nature: +10 (I want cure potions easier to come by; they're a source of income for many churches)
  
  
• Item is necromantic or evil in nature: -10
  
  
• Item replicates direct damage effect: -5
  
  
• Item directly aids in "stealthy" activity: -5
  -

The nature of the item does not give a penalty if it is related to the crafting organization's area of focus.

(This and the last three penalties reflect some of the legal restrictions in my world. Anyone wanting a ring of invisibility, or to animate dead, or a wand of fireballs will have a tougher time finding someone possessing the info for these kinds of items - and willing use it - unless they go to the right people)

The chance that an organization actually has an item already made that it has the formula for is:

-

• Potion: equal to formula chance
  
• Wand: formula chance -10 (or 1/2, which ever is greater)
  
• Other: 1/3 formula chance
  -

Example: The priest Urkon wants to see if the local temple of Wee Jas can make a darkskull for him. The temple has a 10th level priest, is dedicated to a god of death, and has a moderate size library devoted to temple interests. The chance that they have the formula for a darkskull is:

Starting percentage: 65%
Caster Level 9: -45%
Non-arcane item: -10%
Temple's area of focus: +10%
Moderate Specialized Library: +10%
Total percentage: 30%

Unfortunately, the DM rolls an 83 on the percentile die. The temple does not have the formula necessary to create a darkskull.

I have additional rules for charaters wishing to research their own formula, as well, but wanted to focus on this "Magic Item Rarity" concept first. Magic Item formula themselves are worth about 10% of the actual item's price, though most organizations would rather just make the item for you than give out the creation method. This means that formula can sometimes be found as treasure for the party, too.

Whaddya think?

[RedSlayer]

Well, I guess I see a couple issues. Maybe not issues, just things I would have a problem with. I guess those are issues? I don't know. Anyway,

1. Base Percentile: Why 65%? Seems kinda arbitrary. I would suggest making the base chance 50%, and +5% for every point of Spellcasting Modifier. 16 INT = 65%, about average. This would penalize stupid/slow people, and improve the odds for above average. For an organization, this would mean either The person with the highest modifier OR the person going to do the crafting.

2. Penalties for not being Arcane? That does not make much sense. Your reason doesnot hold water (More likely to have item creation feats?) By that logic, I would put out that Clerics (as in your campaign the major sourse of income is healing stuffs) are more likely to have spellcasters specifically devoted to item crafting. See #3

3. Bonus to healing/nature spells? Again, seemingly aribitrary. If you want them to be more available, dont punish preists. See #2.

4. If an organization does not have a spellcaster with the caster level required, than they are unable to produce an Item. If you mean to say they can get it from somewhere else, another branch for instance, than the organization should not have a penalty.

5. Why is it harder to get necro/evil? Arbitrary. The bonus you would recieve for going to an evil temple by the fact you want what they focus in is negated cause its evil? Just plain silly.

6: Direct Damage You mean to tell me a wizards guild is less likely to have a wand of fireball than wands of fly? hard to believe.

7. Stealthy-ness. You mean to tell me a wizards guild is less likely to have a potion of invisibilty than potions of fly? hard to believe.

8. This concept is based a lot on organizations. what about players who want to craft items?

9. Since these are organizations who speciallize in MAGIC, it would stand to reason these are really the only places to produce magic items, so why would it be so difficult to have a wand or other item on hand?

10. Severly limits the benifit of possessing item creation feats if you are dependant on other sorces. Consider giving them some other benifit. I suggest using the generic item crafting rules, found here in the resorceces section.



Thats all I can think of for now. Will come back later and think some more on it.

[Dthclaw]

Well, Red beat me to the punch, but I'll throw in my 2 cp.

1- Go for a multiple of 25% for the base chance. I personally would say 100%, so that items with CL 1 are pretty easy to come by, while CL 20 items don't have a base chance in the negatives.

2- I would penalize items for mixing divine and arcane, not punish one or the other for not belonging to the other group.

3- Ditto with alignment. Why would evil people and organizations have a harder time making magic items than good people trying to do the same thing?

4- Ditto again with penalties/bonuses based on spell type (direct-damage, buff, etc). Mixing (ie, penalty for magic items capable of both direct-damage and buffs) would be a better discouragement than arbitrarily saying that one should be harder to find than the other.

5- Why penalize non-DMG feats?

6- Why penalize non-DMG items? The DMG has rules for making litterally any kind of magic item; why penalize the work of people that have already done the work and published in other books?

7- Define stealthy.

8- 1/3 formula chance is insanely low. Under the current setup, a major magic organization with a focus on crafting magic arms and armor has a ((65-5*5+10)/3)% = 17% to have the formula for a +1 weapon or +1 armor. Unless you plan on anything other than the most basic and pitiful magic weapons to be mythic artifacts, magic items other than wands and potions are practically impossible to find - litterally after CL 13. If you want to go low magic, there are better ways to do it.

[Jimp]

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item is necromantic or evil in nature: -10

I don't understand why there should be a penalty for this, unless it is specific to your campaign setting.
Perhaps a more effective version would be something along the lines of 'Item uses forbidden, taboo or outlawed magics: -5-10 as applicable'.

[Oneiros]

RedSlayer, on Jul 11 2006, 05:16 PM, said:

Well, I guess I see a couple issues.

You have an interesting definition of "a couple" That's good though, 'cuz it give me a chance to think through and explain some of my reasoning.

First, maybe I wasn't completely clear on what I'm shooting for here initially. I'm going for a system which will let a player walk into the local wizard's guild and say (for instance) "I want you to make me a set of Eyes of the Eagle." Instead of me saying "Okay. 25 grand in gold and 25 days", I want to determine if this group of wizards actually have the information neccessary to create that particular item. (That was a greatly simplfied example.)

There's also a fair number of campaign specific factors which play into this. I'll try to address them as I go. Note that a lot of my notes below are how I see things working in my campaign, and aren't neccessarily meant to imply that's how I think organizations should work in general.

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1. Base Percentile: Why 65%? Seems kinda arbitrary. I would suggest making the base chance 50%, and +5% for every point of Spellcasting Modifier. 16 INT = 65%, about average. This would penalize stupid/slow people, and improve the odds for above average. For an organization, this would mean either The person with the highest modifier OR the person going to do the crafting.

Believe me, I tried a lot of iterations of how to make that scale work. I want lower level items to be fairly common but not automatic, but not have the highest level ones be totally impossible except under "perfect storm" conditions (making being a specialist with with absolutely the best library requirements instead of enhancements.)

And as far as spellcasting stats... I'm not looking to neccessarily detail out every member of an organization just to figure out who's got the highest stat or what specific item feats. That sort of runs counter to what I'm trying to accomplish. I am using caster level, but that's pretty much drawing from the table for number and level of character classes for a city of population X, following the guidelines in the DMG. I can't remember if such info has guidelines for organizations in the new PHB2 or DMG2, but if so, I'll probably incorporate that.

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2. Penalties for not being Arcane? That does not make much sense. Your reason does not hold water (More likely to have item creation feats?) By that logic, I would put out that Clerics (as in your campaign the major sourse of income is healing stuffs) are more likely to have spellcasters specifically devoted to item crafting.

Wizards start with a bonus feat (Scribe Scroll), and can get bonus Item Creation feats as a class feature. Clerics, if they do pick up feats, will probably start with Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion, or if they get more permanent item creation feats, those items will probably be more likely reserved for heroes, patrons and other faithful of the church, compared to the more secular and business-minded wizard's guilds, who aren't quite as picky who they sell to. In addition, magic is the focus of arcane casters, whereas it is primarily a means to an ends for divine casters. They have temple matters and concerns to attend to, and will often select feats more geared toward this type of work than crafting items.

So, rather than a "penalty", it's simply a reflection of factors which decrease the likelihood of divine groups being able (or willing) to create a particular, PC-requested item:

-Overall lower number of item creation feats for the entire organization compared to arcane orders
-Less direct focus on magic than arcane orders
-Less willingness to create items for just any buyer

Lastly, there are other factors which will help divine orders and increase their chances which not all arcane orders will have. See below.

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3. Bonus to healing/nature spells? Again, seemingly aribitrary. If you want them to be more available, dont punish priests.

It's "items of a healing nature". This is the bread and butter of temples, and probably the best way for them to earn good will in the community and hopefully converts. Potions of cure x wounds are an item type which is sold to the general (adventuring) public, and your point above is correct - many priests will have the Brew Potion feat for just this very reason - but that's one less feat they have open for making permanent items. (Though I'm toying with the idea of letting low level priests be able to create cure light wounds potions without the feat, in a manner similar to bless water creating holy water.) However, just as a bakery has more cake recipes than seafood recipes, the temples will have a greater chance of having healing-related formula than other types. The bonus for healing items basically negates the "Not an arcane organization" penalty, putting them back on par with wizards, but for something which is more their forte.

And as far as "punishing" priests, there are a couple of other things to consider which help out divine orders. First, every clerical group has an area of special interest related to their god, receiving a +10 percent chance to have formula to create related items. This helps add flavor and distinction to the various religions as well. Want a pearl of the sirens, go to the church of the god of the sea. Want a holy sword, go to the temple of the god of war. Want a magic 8-ball, go to the clerics of the god of prophecy (they'll be expecting you...)

In addition, many temples in larger towns or cities will have a library focusing on their special interest, giving them a further bonus. I would probably even give another bonus if the item is based off of a domain spell for the deity. Add up all these bonuses for a cure light wounds potion from a temple of a god of healing in a large city (base 60 + potion 10 + healing 10 + focus 10 + big library 20 = 110%), and you can see that for their particular focus, temples can be more likely to be able to create items than a similar wizard's guild.

And a quick note on my (admittedly still very nebulous) library rules: yes, most wizard organizations will have a library. But it's general in nature, and part of the reason arcane orders have a better base chance than divine. For any arcane library of size X, they will probably have a specialty library (that is, devoted to one particular school of magic) of size X-2, X being a number on the scale of 1 to 5. Specialty schools of wizards do exist, but are far less common than a divine ones (again, every clerical order has a specialty focus.)

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4. If an organization does not have a spellcaster with the caster level required, than they are unable to produce an Item. If you mean to say they can get it from somewhere else, another branch for instance, than the organization should not have a penalty.

Yes, a organization might have formula beyond their capability to create (just as a player might find a spellbook with spells beyond his current level.) They might contact another organization to have someone of sufficient level make it, but I don't see this happening alot. And if it does, it will probably be at increased expense to the buyer. However, if a PC has the appropriate Item feat, he'd probably be allowed to create the item

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5. Why is it harder to get necro/evil? Arbitrary. The bonus you would receive for going to an evil temple by the fact you want what they focus in is negated cause its evil? Just plain silly.

You missed the footnote:

"The nature of the item does not give a penalty if it is related to the crafting organization's area of focus."

So the temple of the god of Undead does not get a penalty for necromantic items, and still receives their bonus area of focus.

The additional penalty for other organizations reflects the fact that necromantic magic is harder to come by in my campaign, as it's written in Abyssal. Most other magic is written in Celestial, which is the default language read magic works with. The caster actually has to know Abyssal to use read magic on necromantic scrolls/spellbooks. Also, necromantic magic is generally illegal, so the penalty also reflects an organization's willingness to sell such items, even if they have the formula.

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6. Direct Damage You mean to tell me a wizards guild is less likely to have a wand of fireball than wands of fly? hard to believe.

Again, for reasons related to magic and the law. You have to be licensed to be a wizard, and can be held accountable for damage done with magic. An organization can be held accountable if items they sold were used in an unlawful manner, especially if it happens repeatedly. So the (minor) penalty in part is a reflection of willingness to sell such items, and the fact that such items aren't as commonly requested (again for the reasons stated above), so their formula aren't as dilegently sought. However, if a character wants to deal with the Council of Battlemages (a militant group specializing in the Evocation school), they'll have a better chance of a wand of fireball than with the downtown wizard's college.

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7. Stealthy-ness. You mean to tell me a wizards guild is less likely to have a potion of invisibilty than potions of fly? hard to believe.

Yes, for the reasons stated above. However, certain organizations who don't believe in the licensing of wizards might be willing to hook you up. Just ask for "Roscoe" in the alley behind the bar...

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8. This concept is based a lot on organizations. What about players who want to craft items?

As I mentioned in the first post, the rules for individuals aren't presented here. Crafting by PCs ties into a few other house rules, which I didn't want to go into. But in brief, picking a Item Creation feat give a character a couple of formula of their choice initially, some properties of items are part of the feat and don't require formula (plusses on armor and weapons, for example), and formula are researched similar to researching new spells. Also, by affiliating themselves with a temple or guild, a character can use the formula that organization has access to. This helps serve as a roleplaying/story/background hook.

Also, in my 3E campaign, I have a system that lets characters bond with magic items and add properties to them themselves, without a feat (though making a bonding item initially is an Item Creation feat.) Having "store-bought" items be a little more rare encourages bonded items in the campaign, which the players can customize as they like.

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9. Since these are organizations who speciallize in MAGIC, it would stand to reason these are really the only places to produce magic items, so why would it be so difficult to have a wand or other item on hand?

It takes time, money and XP to create any single item. Unless you know there's going to be a buyer for an item, why make all of that investment? Cure Wounds potions. Sure. Wand of Indentify? No brainer. But for other things, temples and wizard schools have other expenses and concerns besides just producing magic items that may sit around collecting dust.

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10. Severly limits the benifit of possessing item creation feats if you are dependant on other sorces. Consider giving them some other benifit. I suggest using the generic item crafting rules, found here in the resorceces section.

I've seen such systems before, and they just don't appeal to me. It actually makes the system seem more "mechanical" - I like item categories to be a little more distinct. Though within them, I do allow some variety - a "potion" could take other forms, and are often in the form of enchanted pieces of fruit in my game. Wands can be almost any small object - the only requirement is you must hold them in your hand to direct the energy.

Dthclaw, on Jul 11 2006, 06:09 PM, said:

5- Why penalize non-DMG feats?

6- Why penalize non-DMG items? The DMG has rules for making litterally any kind of magic item; why penalize the work of people that have already done the work and published in other books?

Well, for feats, any non-core item types are simply considered rarer, lesser well known magic. For instance, in the Forgotten Realms Ancient Empires book, there's a feat to make scepters. In my campaign, these items are also from ancient empires, and not as many people know how to make them today.

For non-DMG items, I guess that should be items based on non-core spells. The PHB list is the "universal" list of magic spells, so items created based on them will normally be OK, even if they aren't from the DMG. Other spells are again rarer, though some may be more common in different regions, and the penalty for formula would be removed in those regions.

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7- Define stealthy.

The Edicts of the Imperial Society of Arcanists in Alabar define it as "...magic used during the commission of a crime, in either a stealthy or forceful manner, shall carry a significant penalty in addition to the punishment for the crime itself." They like to keep the definition vague

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8- 1/3 formula chance is insanely low. Under the current setup, a major magic organization with a focus on crafting magic arms and armor has a ((65-5*5+10)/3)% = 17% to have the formula for a +1 weapon or +1 armor. Unless you plan on anything other than the most basic and pitiful magic weapons to be mythic artifacts, magic items other than wands and potions are practically impossible to find - litterally after CL 13. If you want to go low magic, there are better ways to do it.

The 1/3 is the chance to actually have an item already made, lying around waiting to be sold. The formula chance itself would be 50%, and odds are the character would have to wait a couple days for the item to be crafted. Also, enhancement bonuses don't need formula, they're a basic ability of the feat. But if you want your +1 sowrd to be flaming, that'll take a formula.

Jimp, on Jul 11 2006, 06:45 PM, said:

I don't understand why there should be a penalty for this, unless it is specific to your campaign setting.
Perhaps a more effective version would be something along the lines of 'Item uses forbidden, taboo or outlawed magics: -5-10 as applicable'.

That is really what I'm going for. Hmmm. I'll consider rewording.

[Oneiros]

'Kay. I played around with another progression so that there are no negative numbers for the chance of an item, so it's possible for a non-specialized, no-library-havin' group to still have a formula for an item, though this chance can still be reduced below zero if there is no caster of a high enough level, which is fine. The base progression is 50 - (Caster Level x 2). Works out like this:

Caster
Lvl	  Pcnt.
1		48
2		46
3		44
4		42
5		40
6		38
7		36
8		34
9 	   32
10	   30
11	   28
12	   26
13	   24
14	   22
15	   20
16	   18
17	   16
18	   14
19	   12
20	   10

I then also modified the modifiers, based on alot of the explaination I gave above, and some of the suggestions. Non-wizard orders no longer get a penalty, but a licensed wizard order gets a bonus instead. A clerical temple will get the same bonus if you are looking for an item in their area of interest to their deity. I also grouped all the bonuses and penalties together.

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• Organization is a licensed wizard order: +10
  
  
• Organization’s area of focus related to item: +10
  
  
• Organization has specialized library: +[Size bonus x 5]
  
  
• Item is a potion: +10
  
  
• Item is a wand or staff: +5
  
  
• Item is healing/curative in nature: +5
  
  
  
• No caster of sufficient level in organization: -[Caster level difference x 5]
  
  
• Individual, not organization: -5
  
  
• Item is based on non-core spell: -5
  
  
• Item requires non-core Craft Item Feat: -5
  
  
• Item is of a legally dubious nature: -5
  
  
• Item is necromantic in nature: -5

The necromantic penalty is still separate from the "legally dubious" category, simply because necromantic spells in general tend to be rarer. A group specializing in necromancy would not receive this penalty, but would receive the "area of focus" bonus.

"Legally dubious" items still covers items of stealth or descruction, which means necromantic items might receive both penalties. Again, an organization which specializes in these sorts of items, like the god of thieves, does not receive a penalty but gets a bonus for something like a ring of invisibility (Trickery Domain).

As you can see by my previous post, there are a lot of other factors in my game that influence this. Another thing I forgot to mention: just about any item that gives some sort of bonus, like a Ring of Protection, has to be a jewelry item in my game. And the Craft Jewelry feat (replaces Forge Ring) gives the ability to add those bonuses as part of the base feat. Adding other properties requires a formula.

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

I am curious if having a high Knowledge (Arcana) would help with the percentages at all. Personally, I would say that it does, but then again, that is just me.

[Oneiros]

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I am curious if having a high Knowledge (Arcana) would help with the percentages at all. Personally, I would say that it does, but then again, that is just me.

If who has it?

For a wizard organization, it's almost certain that there are individuals with max ranks in Knowledge [Arcana], so it's pretty much a default assumption that wouldn't influence the percentages. I mean, would you even want to go to a wizard organization where no one has focused on that skill?

Same would be true for a clerical temple and Knowledge [Religion]. And again, I don't neccessarily want to detail out all of the individuals for a specific organization if the only interaction the PCs have is purchasing magic items. Even an organization more central to the plot would probably only have the relevant NPCs detailed.

The PCs having high Knowledge [Arcana] wouldn't influence the percentages anymore than a particular customer having an Electrical Engineering degree would influence what Best Buy has in stock on their shelves.