[Raven Bloodmoon]

So, anyone want to tell me what they think of this version of permanency? It is more versatile, so I am guessing that the spell level should be hire, but otherwise, I think it is mostly in line with the original, just without the pesky lists.

Permanency
Universal
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 5
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 2 rounds
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: Permanent; see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell makes certain other spells permanent. Depending on the spell, you must be of a minimum caster level and must expend a number of XP.

You can make any spell with a continuous effect and a duration other than “permanent,” “concentration,” or “instantaneous” permanent. A continuous effect is one that lasts the entire duration of the spell. Thus, detect evil has a continuous effect, but call lightning does not. A spell that is targeted by permanency does not expire at the end of its duration and has its duration changed to “permanent.”

Spells cast on yourself and made permanent can only be dispelled by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell. Spells cast on other creatures, objects, or locations (not on you) are vulnerable to dispel magic as normal.

In order to make a given spell permanent, the caster must have a minimum caster level equal to 7 plus the spell’s level plus any special modifiers as follows. A spell with a duration of 1 day (24 hours) or more treats its spell level as 1 lower than it actually is. A spell with its duration measured in hours (that is less than 24 hours) does not modify its effective spell level for purposes of permanency; a spell with a duration measured in minutes has an effective spell level 1 higher than it actually is. A spell with a duration measured in rounds has an effective spell level 2 higher than it actually is. A spell with a duration shorter than one round has an effective spell level 4 higher than it actually is. Spells always use the least favorable effective level when determining the minimum caster level for permanency.

Spells modified by metamagic are considered to be a spell of the modified spell level. For example, a quickened detect magic casts as a 4th level spell, so it is treated as a 4th level spell for purposes of determining minimum caster level and XP costs for permanency.

The DM may choose to disallow the use of permanency with respect to any spell at any time.
XP Cost: (Minimum caster – 8) x 500 XP.

[Dthclaw]

Speaking from my own XP, Raven, I would highly advise against adding a universal permanency. Our group tried that once, and it was a complete disaster - they would just hire NPCs to bite the XP cost... and even with the 5:1 gp cost, permanenced haste or mage armor is still far cheaper than an equivalent magic item, and much more dangerous because there is no limit to uses per day, duration, and you can't sunder it.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Ooh. Good point. NPCs....hadn't thought of that. ~nixes the idea~

[JosephBlackly]

The weirdest thing is, I was just about to make a post about the Permanency spell. But it was here waiting for me... (fails at making spooky noises)

I like the idea of a universal Permanency. However, to make it viable, you have to make it possibly 1) hard to find someone who has it, and definitely 2) place limits on how many/what type of spells can be permanent at one time. Otherwise, you're gonna see your players go up to any decent-level Adept and paying them to burn however much XP to get a +4 on all stats (Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Bears Endurance, and the others).

My rule for Permanency were that you can have a maximum number of permanent spell levels equal to half your character level (minimum 0), and you can only have a single permanent boost to an ability score. If you wanted permanent Haste, you'd have to first find someone with Permanency, then pay/convince them to cast it on you, but you would have to ba at least 6th level (or higher if you already had a permanent spell on). If someone tries to dispel a permanent effect, they first dispel the Permanency, making the spell's duration continue from where it was stopped due to being permanent.

That's how I would do it. Whether it's a good idea or not is something different altogether. Now I need to put some clothes on and bring an NES to Big Bro...

[Jimp]

If you ask me, it's far to abusable. FAR too abusable dizzam it! I mean, think about the plethora of very good buff spells that have short durations that can now be made permanant? Sure, the XP cost would be huge but it would be worth it for some effects. Permanant Stoneskin + Ghostform + Greater Displacement anyone? The cost may be huge but your going to be incorporal with other ghost bonuses while having some great permanant DR and all attack that can hit your incorporal body have a 50% miss chance anyway. And that's just a flimsy example. There are WAY more broken uses out there.

[super sorcerer]

I think that permanent spell turning , permanent death ward and permanent freedom of movement make you immune to most effects. Permanent divine power, permanent divine favor and permanent holy combined with permanent improved invisibility can make any cleric way too powerfull at the cost of only 3500+4000+1000=8500 XP which is less than 2 wishes.
Can you think how disasterous it is to make divinations permanent?

[Dthclaw]

You folks do realize that Raven has already decided not to go with this idea, right? After one reply?

[Jimp]

No, we did not realise. We ran straight to the finish without getting in the car first. Our posts do help point out the borkedness though

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Quote

I like the idea of a universal Permanency. However, to make it viable, you have to make it possibly 1) hard to find someone who has it, and definitely 2) place limits on how many/what type of spells can be permanent at one time. Otherwise, you're gonna see your players go up to any decent-level Adept and paying them to burn however much XP to get a +4 on all stats (Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Bears Endurance, and the others).

Incidentally, I do not play Forgotten Realms campaigns, so finding a 9th level Adept is sort of difficult, let alone one with a high enough caster level for the fun spells.

Here are some possible fixes, since you all seem so gungho on talking about this.

1) Up the XP cost. What is suggested above is identical to what is in the PHB. There is no reason it can't be higher.

2) Make the spell level higher. Nothing sucks more than having to burn a 9th level spell, and how many 17th level wizard NPCs willing to burn tons of XP one charitable causes are running around your campaign worlds? Maybe I need to join one of your games.

3) Make the caster level requirements higher. Again, no reason we can't just up some of those out of the arena.

4) Add a very pricy material component on top of the XP cost. Eventaully it will be cheaper to just buy an item that produces the same effect.

5) Perhaps a Spellcraft check could be implemented to determine is the spell is successful. Making it uncertain as to whether XP costs will be wasted should make most NPCs wary of casting the spell and most PCs really think twice, since valuable XP is at stake.

Just a couple suggestions to unbreak this for any of you who still want to pursue it. Or just debate it. We haven't had a good debate on here in a while.

[Dthclaw]

A thought, then, if you are out to keep it: turn this into a spell cast on an elixer, which requires the use of reagents equal to what a continuous effect, slotless item of the spell would require in addition to the XP cost to brew. The elixer, when imbibed, grants the effect of the spell to be permanenced.

(I suggest an elixer because otherwise any 21st level caster - any - would be able to ignore a material cost with just a total of two already useful feats).

[Raven Bloodmoon]

An elixir is wonderful if you are trynig to make an effect permanent on yourself....but how would my boots drink it? Or for that matter, how would the gate to my keep drink it? Not quite going to work spells targeting objects or places.....so much for a permanent sanctify or desecrate....>>

And as far as the pricing system, while it makes some sense, if it costs more to make an item with the effect, why not just make an item with that effect instead of using this spell? I mean, if I am out to desecrate some temples, I might as well just make an item that permently emminates desecration and hide it in the temple. It'd cost less and it would be every bit as effective--possibly moreso because the priests would have to find the object to permanently get rid of the effect, and that opens up the possibility for traps....

[super sorcerer]

Comes to think about most breaking rise with spells who effect the caster or a target. your rules fit perfectly fine to spells who effect area or create something (a permanent mordenkainen's sword).

Quote

I think that permanent spell turning , permanent death ward and permanent freedom of movement make you immune to most effects. Permanent divine power, permanent divine favor and permanent holy combined with permanent improved invisibility can make any cleric way too powerfull at the cost of only 3500+4000+1000=8500 XP which is less than 2 wishes.
Can you think how disasterous it is to make divinations permanent?

I know I quote myself but I was just wrong. All those effects are disspellable so when fighting against any creature with greater dispel magic could make all that XP wasted. Yesterday I was too tired to realy think about what I write. Nothing is more irritating than get all your XP wasted for nothing.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

That is something else to consider. Anything your perm can be dispelled one way or another. And you have to figure if you have an NPC making you these permed spells, there is no reason a villain NPC can't just dispell or disjunction them into oblivion. And then you have a lot of wasted XP / gold. And LIke I said above, you can limit the number of NPCs who have the ability to cast the spell easily enough, unless a 17th level wizard is that common in your world.

[JosephBlackly]

Here's another potentially bad way of doing this:

Instead of having a permanent effect, the character gains the spell as a spell-like or supernatural ability, usable once per day, that targets only yourself at the caster level of the guy who cast the spell on you. So, if you were to have a 9th-level guy cast Haste and then Permanency on you, the effect would last for 9 rounds, as per the Haste spell, then would be usable 1/day at caster level 9th, range "personal". You would give off a magical aura the strength of the permanency spell, for those with Detect Magic that might want to kill you, and it wouldn't be nearly as powerful as that item that gives you perma-haste.

Of course, this way doesn't exactly make the spell "permanent", as the spell is suppose to. If nothing else, you could just as easily make another spell that does this. Whatever. I need more sleep...

[Vaskre]

Here's an idea: Make the spell drain experience from the target rather than the caster based on which spell is being made permanent. {Insert some type of formula here} That way, even if you go through NPCs, you cannot ignore the experience cost. That is, provided the thing being made permanent can lose XP. If not, the XP cost goes back to the caster.