[Axel]

This is actually an idea I've been toying with for a long time, one that has interesting difficulties and some great potential if done properly. Those who've read my story Lawman will already have some idea what it's about. Those who haven't: see the link in my signiture and read it now! You'll be glad you did.
The basic premise is, using the basic D&D world, to design a campaign world closely based on the Old West. A world where the hand-crossbow is every cowman's weapon of choice, where a rancher will just as easily be raising unicorns as cattle, and a 4 foot prospector isn't at all unusual.

Well, now for some of the unique problems. I've got a good idea what the current setup will be on the frontier, but I need justification for it. I need a political structure that will allow something like the American West, an expansionist nation that is moving into a vast territory that isn't occupied by someone they will acknowledge as the rightful owners, ie: someone unable to fend of the assault either through technological inferiourity or from internal instability, or simply because they lack the numbers to do so. Or some combination thereof.
Now what I've been thinking is an imperial nation that uses a provincial structure and senate, which would allow local governors to handle day to day affiars without becoming a threat to the emperor. But I need to justify the sudden expansion and why any civilization that preceeded them is now gone or too weak to resist. Preferably without having to create an entire Old World and colonization period.

[Jimp]

Well, in the 'old west' advances in things like rail transport and the search for new natural resources were big factors in rapid expansion. Entire towns set up around a site where gold was found or where a train track passed.
I've read some of Lawman but just for clarification, how technologically advanced are the people in your world? Also, is there much magic?

[RedSlayer]

Well, a quick glance would indicate the obvious humans as the expantionist power.

As to the race that is lacking the abilitiy to fend off the humans? I would go elves. Think about it this way: Elves, with their long life spans and "haughty-esc" nature, would probably be pretty selective with who they breed with, and after a few thousand years, the bloodline has gotten weak. (i.e. constitution penality), and that the society has become more unstable, as the royals, who are even MORE selective, become mentally unstable, with out the ability to think forward or for the embetterment of their race.

I could imagine an elf king who is prone to fits of rage and often kills off his high ranking generals and advisors do to his paranoia (i.e. hitler, any meglomanic dictator). This elven country would be unable to defend itself, do to lack of leadership, ability to fight, and eventually, the will to fight. Of course, there would be some hard core groups that fought back, using human technology, but it would eventually become futile.

As to technology? With their culture failing, the elves are holding on to whatever tradition they can find. And, unfortunately, this leads to outdated weaponry and tactics, as well as certain domestic things. (exacerbated by lack of forward thinking leaders.) It allows anyone who plays an elf a tradgic backstory to begin with, offering numerous RP instances. (old tribe was wiped out, looking for the hidden "lost tribe", rise up to become a leader through revolution, etc...)

Anyways, just some initial thoughts....

[dragonhand777]

RedSlayer, on May 26 2006, 01:27 PM, said:

Well, a quick glance would indicate the obvious humans as the expantionist power.

As to the race that is lacking the abilitiy to fend off the humans? I would go elves.

I like the idea of using elves, but suggest wild elves from the Monster Manual.

Expansion could be due to an ever growing population and over crowding. Maybe the current emperor is greedy and land hungry.

Perhaps dragonslayers, hired by the would be expansionist government, recently slew an ancient wyrm that had been guarding the land from furhter exploration and settlement. You could possibly make an entire campaign around that and let it kick off the intro into your new world.

[Axel]

I was actually planning to use Centaurs as the native population. Their inherrently nomadic lifestyle would easily allow tribal divisions that could be exploited by the expanding human population.

The idea of a dragon presence does have potential. It would allow for an extremely limited number of adventurers to have explored the area before, without any potential for expansion. I've also considered the idea that another kingdom, perhaps dwarves, had until recently been blocking the passage out, but for one reason or another have begun to allow expansion. Or some magical advancement that could replace the railroad and allow for rapid expansion.

[Rintaran]

On the dwarves previously blocking expansion, perhaps its not so much that they're now letting the expansion happen, but more of a "didn't there used to be dwarves here?" scenario? This could definitely build something interesting into the setting, without being anything particularly far-fetched ('cause I know you hate that). The dwarves could have left after a richer vein, or the humans could have just stopped trying to get through for long enough, that the dwarves felt they'd be able to make better use of their dwarf-power in other areas.

Additionally, this could backfire after the expansion has already begun, with the dwarves noticing and deciding to block it off again to help protect their friends, the centaur, whom they enjoy fine trading relationships with (tools & weapons for cloths & food).

Plenty of possibilities with this scenario...

[dragonhand777]

Axel, on May 29 2006, 10:08 AM, said:

I was actually planning to use Centaurs as the native population. Their inherrently nomadic lifestyle would easily allow tribal divisions that could be exploited by the expanding human population.

The idea of a dragon presence does have potential. It would allow for an extremely limited number of adventurers to have explored the area before, without any potential for expansion. I've also considered the idea that another kingdom, perhaps dwarves, had until recently been blocking the passage out, but for one reason or another have begun to allow expansion. Or some magical advancement that could replace the railroad and allow for rapid expansion.

You could rob an idea from Eberron: vehicles, such as a flying ship and/or a form of railroad, that rely on harnessed elementals.

On the "didn't there used to be dwarves here?" scenario, if you don't think its too far fetched, you could use a scenario like the dwarves in Khazad-dum.

I still think the dragon idea fits well without being too far fetched. But wanting the expansion to come from a civilization that has had its roots there for a while, its probably a good idea to use a combination of any of the suggested events (ours or your own).

Such as...
1. With the dragon gone the Centaur population is growing - some come to trade, others come to war with the more advanced civilization.
Or
2. The dwarves who blocked the expansion route were tired of being harrassed by the dragon and roused it, but in the process it devistated their population-hence disrupting the trade with the Centaurs causing them to seek other folks to trade with.

Honestly, there are some good ideas in this topic, including your own Axel. Its just a matter of picking what you want.

As for me, I like what your doing so much I'm gonna use the idea myself. Although it may be a while before i get to it. My current campaign is really just now getting underway and after this I'm gonna run an all dwarven campaign. Why? Because dwarves rock, thats why!

[Axel]

Could use a lonely mountain scenario. Dwarves used to be prohibitting expansion, were forced out by a dragon, who was in turn killed by adventurers. Gives a good reason why expansion was impossible before and why it suddenly boomed in the last, say, 10 years. Could give some fun opportunities, dwarves trying to reclaim lost goods and land from the dragon while the expanding human population is grabbing anything and everything in sight.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

That could actaully open up some nice political maneuvering and set up a bit of recent history. I imagine even within the dwarves, there would be pro-human groups, as there would be anti-dwarf groups amongst the humans. I could see some looking for only limited trade, others for full integration, and others looking to remain "pure." I could see the hardliner conservatives now....."A woman with a beard ought to be a-feared!" Then the pro-integration people might be along the lines of "To the Dwarves the earth and to the humans the land." Or something along those lines. I'm sure you get the drift.

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

For the political structure, you could use some sort of an aristocracy where the younger sons/progeny are finally able to make a name for themselves by exploring or expanding the territories of their families. This is, of course, in addition to the Senate and whatnot. There is a VERY strong undercurrent of nationalism that has been running throughout the kingdom and the younger sons could be encouraged to expand "for the glory of the kingdom."

None of this would be done officially by the government but the government does nothing to discourage those who would wish to expand.

You could even have some group of humans take down the dragon and have the leader of this group be the figurehead of the expedition to expand. That way, the people of the kingdom would be "We killed it, we claim its territory" even though the centaurs were there from the beginning.

You might even be able to bring in old "legends" of times when the country spanned "from mountain range to mountain range/sea/ocean" that has helped to spread this entire nationalistic craze. Bards are being covertly hired by the Senate to spread these nationalistic tales and more people are joining the cause every day.

I am curious to know if there are any other countries that may be near by (other than the ones mentioned, specifically looking for human ones) that could play in role in helping as allies or hurting as saboteurs.

[Axel]

Manifest Destiny, thanks for reminding me of that. That would help create conflict, the belief that somehow the Empire is gifted by the gods to expand and dominate the continent. And a bardic propoganda corps, that could just make bards interesting again.
And I can certainly get behind the idea of the famous dragonslayer leading the rush to the frontier. The start of pioneer tall tales, a legend in his own time. After all, a new land needs its own new folk heroes.

As to other kingdoms, I haven't decided on any, although any suggestions there are more than welcome.
I'm thinking that the dwarves should have a much larger kingdom than just the area taken by the dragon, though that should be a significant part of it. It would mean that they were severely weakened by it, while the human Empire grew. That would leave them in little position to defend themselves and little choice but to embrace their larger neighbor. That gives plenty of reason for some dwarves to abandon their failing kingdom and stake out their own claims on the frontier.
[WOMBAT], all we need now are some elves.

[Rintaran]

Why? Elves are so disgustingly overused anyways. You can easily axe them from the setting.

Alternately, you could have them making forays out of the jungles to the south (as per the expansion from south america), making them enemies of both the native centaur, and the expanding humans.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Ooh! Pagan elves! Now we just need some conquistadors to show up, pose as gods, enslave them all, and then spread small pox throughout the population. Yay! Sorry, off topic, but that should give some ideas as to just what might happen as humans expand. Plagues and pestulence are always fun. ~rings a bell~ BRING OUT YOUR DEAD!

[Axel]

I thought of a few other races I forgot to factor in to my original assessment. Apart from elves there's also drow, orcs, and goblins. And I have no idea how to factor any of them into the equation.
Though, one of the big drives for expansion during the late 19th century was immigration. Problems and upheavals in Europe pushed refugees to America. Many remained in the cities and became the wage slaves that supported American capitalism, but others headed west in the search for cheap land. That would be a very easy way to add it any number of races, if we can come up with justification for them fleeing to the human controlled frontier from whatever their homeland is.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Perhaps the same reason many immigrants left. They wanted the opportunity for a better life. As backstabbing and cutthroat and oppressive as drow society is, perhaps human lands offer the safety and freedom some might want?