[Axel]

Well, the discussion about crat, perform, and proffession subskills got me thinking about the use of subskills in D&D and the very different system used in Serenity. Serenity, for those who don't know, uses its own system which uses every die save the d20. Skills in Serenity are divided into groups, at first a character takes ranks in these groups, his proficiency is measured by what die he rolls in making a check. The character is limited in how far he can advance in a skill group, and in order to get any better it's necessary to take subskills. The system it set up so that a character must first max out his capability in the group and then starts taking the specific skills. This works quite well for Serenity's levelless system, advancement is gradual, each improvment is gained individually.
Now I thought about how this skill setup might work for the d20 system. Certainly many of the skills currently available carry cerain overlap, not to mention that they could fall into simple groups quite easily. Apart from the obvious craft, profession, perform, and knowledge; could you also picture a perception skill group, or perhaps athletics? Maybe an entire diplomacy group that included its related skills? Apart from solving issues of overlap this also makes a certain degree of sense, there are very basic things that a person builds on before specializing.
Now the one stumbling block I see here is encouraging players to take the specific skills over the general, if you can get 5 for the price of 1 why not go for it? The Serenity system of capping advancement in a group skill, like most of its realistic components, is hardly a viable approach for a level based system. I thought about just making all group skills cross-class for all classes, which does put an effective limit on advancement there. There is also the fact that a specialty skill adds the group ranks to each check, which might in itself provide enough incentive to take subkills.

Input?

[Jimp]

Is there a Serenity SRD file or something similar so that I could read up on their skill system more? I got the jist of your synopsis but I don't really understand it entirely. With a better understanding of the system I'd give some input

[Axel]

From the Serenity RPG core rulebook:

Quote

Just as Attributes represent your Crew’s raw talents, Skills represent the training that helps best make use of that talent. The Skills you pick for your character reflect his or her origins, interests, and education. A quick glance at the Skills you choose can often tell a lot about the character, revealing either an upstanding, educated citizen of the Core planets or a hell-raisin’ gunslinger from the Rim—or some such in between.
You purchase Skills during character creation and improve them later with Advancement Points (see Chapter One: Find a Crew). Skills are divided into two related types: General Skills and Specialties. An example of a General Skill is Athletics—a Skill needed for any type of physical activity from dodging to swimming. A General Skill can be improved upon, but may advance only up to d6. After that, you need to choose at least one Specialty Skill.
Speciality Skills start where the General Skill leaves off, allowing the character to improve in a specific area of expertise. For example, your former track star character has the Athletic Skill at d6, with the Running Specialty at d10. When you already have a d6 in a general Skill, your purchased Specialties start at d8, as you build on the expertise you have at the general level. There are no limits to the number of Specialties you may purchase.
If a character doesn’t have a Specialty, he simply rolls using the general Skill (assuming he has it), or the Attribute only if he has no Skill in the action whatsoever. A Skill starting at d2 can be improved upon from there.

[Dthclaw]

I toyed with the idea, but it seems to me like it would be a lot of work to retool it DnD. Just think of all the skills that would require complete changing if it were applied to 3/3.5...

On the other hand, it could work for Modern. Not quite as much, but less Herculean an effort.

[Axel]

I think it's more converting it to d20, than to any specific game in the system. It would also make a good prelude to a fully skill-based d20 system, but that's for another time.
It seems to me that once you figure out what you want your skill groups to be in the first place it'd be easy to turn the remaining skills into specialties.

[Dthclaw]

Perhaps. But how to decide which becomes the main one, and which becomes the specialties?

[Axel]

Well, here's a preliminary list. Very rough, of course, but something to go on in that department.

Craft
Knowledge
Perform
Speak Language
Athletics – Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, Tumble
Perception – Spot, Listen, Smell, Taste, Empathy, Extra Sensory (DM discretion)
Examine - Search, Research, Appraise, Decipher Script
Survival – Forage, Navigation, Move Freely, Track
Diplomacy – Innuendo, Bluff, Sense Motive, Improve Attitude, Intimidate, Gather Information
Stealth – Hide, Move Silently, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery
Sleight of Hand – Pick Pocket, Pick Lock, Disable Device, Use Rope
Handle Animal – Ride, Train, Wild Empathy
Heal – First Aid, Surgery, Psychiatry
Spellcraft – Identify Spell, Use Magic Device, Learn Spell (Wizard Only)
Discipline – Concentration, Composure

Ok, I'll grant that to come up with some of the specialties in this list I had to split existing skills into their different uses. On the other hand it does make sense (at least to me) that if we use a specialty system we should divide expansive skills into their components.

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

Isn't this pretty much the same idea as the skills group system that you can find in Iron Heroes?

[Axel]

Beats me, what's Iron Heroes, how does that system work?

[Oneiros]

Axel, on Jun 4 2006, 08:59 AM, said:

Beats me, what's Iron Heroes, how does that system work?

Iron Heroes is an "alternate Player's Handbook" from Malhavoc Press (Monte Cook's company.) It's a low magic setting with an emphasis on interesting combat, very Conan-like in feel. It's close enough to standard DnD I'd hesitate to call it a separate d20 game. One demo game at a local conventrion was enough to convince me to buy the book.

The author (Mike Mearls) wrote a Design Diary article on how skills work in Iron Heroes, and the reasoning behind the change. Your proposal, Axel, does look very similar.

[Axel]

You're right, it does look similar. Lacking the book itself I can't say for certain how far the similarities go, or how good the Iron Heroes system really is. But from the look of that article I'd say he was thinking exactly what I am now. And what the designers of Serenity were. If anyone has Iron Heroes and would like to embellish I'd love to know more about the system it uses.

[Axel]

Well, I've looked at Iron Heroes. The skill system is similar to what I have in mind, at least, the skill groups can be lifted from it. Although I was planning to have taking group skills as a necessity, rather than an option.