[Raven Bloodmoon]

This is a thread to discuss new rules concerning armor. In other words, there are base types of armor that have a base AC and then there are materials that modify that AC. This way you can make any kind of armor out of anything. At least that is the thought so far. I guess I'll kick things off by listing a few categories of armor types we could have.

Helmet / Cap
Breastplate
Cuirass
Greaves
Boots
Bracers
Haulberk
Skirt
Leggings (heh...iron pants)
Half Plate
Full Plate
Scale Mail
Splint Mail
Gauntlets / Gloves

Anything I missed or you think should be changed?

[Dthclaw]

Pauldrons or other shoulder gear?

[Oneiros]

What exactly is the goal here? To come up with a piecemeal armor system? If I took all the various pieces of half-plate, for example, adjusted for being steel, should the total value number be the same as listed for a full suit in the PHB? (+7)

[Dthclaw]

I'm thinking that's the plan.

Most of the types probably won't have any effect by themselves, requiring multiple pieces to grant varying levels of AC bonus. As you say, a lot of the pieces would add up to plate mail, some pieces to banded mail/splint mail/whatever. And, if I understand correctly, the material composition of each piece will affect its protective value, too (wood less than steel less than adamantine, etc).

[Rintaran]

Wouldn't it just be simpler to come up with modifiers based on the material? It would still have the same basic effect, and wouldn't require hacking apart every piece and type of armour.

[Dthclaw]

But I want to run around half-nekked with nothing but a covering and huge gloves on!

[Axel]

Because the existing armours have huge problems in deffinition. There are armours presented that are distinguished only by what they are made from, that would be pointless if you had a system that allows for both form and material.
However, I do agree that there is some problem with individual components. Pieces of armour are intended to provide coverage when used together, gauntlets alone do you very little good.

[jack(tim)]

"All the pieces together is greater than the sum of its parts..."

Sorry had to put that there... but you can really cover parts of armor in the case of a called shot... while you may have gauntlets that provide a total of +2 AC that only applies to attacks on your hands... unless of course if you had deflect or snatch arrows...

Then maybe you might get somewhere...

Hey about a feat that adds the collective ac of a part of armor (say hands) if a combination feat is in play (say snatch arrows)... Then a monk that has Gauntlets that grant say +2 AC on... and snatch arrows.... plus this new feat... as long as monk isn't wielding anything greater than a sap or small dagger he/she can block with his/her hands and gain the +2 from the gauntlets when blocking one or more enemies (based on their individual BABs... or something relevant to the number of attacks the enemy can make... vs. monk's flurry of blows...)

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Okay, how about this. Lets start with basic armor types. Then we can get more specific from there. I think that might work better. Also, when I have time, I'll look in TSR's Oriental Adventures, because they have a decent breakdown of samurai armor, much of which should translate over to European as far as areas protected is concerned.

[Dthclaw]

Ja, broader rather than narrower would be a good place to start.

[jack(tim)]

Good deal... I also think that some of the other armors should be rebalanced... and have like a weakness chart... like for instance... a chain shirt should do fine against slashing and decent against bludgeoning... but the sharp points of piercing weapons should gain a bonus against the holey armor of +1 to AC... (I like puns... but I hate lvl 12 kobold... I'll stop there...)

[Raven Bloodmoon]

If you are going to go that route, just use the damage reduction varient for armor presented in UA. It should accomplish that fine.

Now, for broader armor types, how about....

Hauberk
Chain Shirt
Cuirass
Scale Suit
Chain Suit
Lorica
Splinted Armor
Half Plate
Full Plate

I think that covers the traditional types of armor we tend to think of. My personal feeling is that shields are already where they should be. Maybe we might do them by size just for material purposes....

Small
Large
Holy-Crap-It's-A-Mobile-Wall

I think that sums up shields. Now for my first ideas for materials.

Leather
Bronze
Iron
Steel
Pine Plank (think shields)
Plywood (think Roman shields)
Hay (think flammible Persian shields) [Just kidding. I'd still love to see someone use it]
Tanned [insert creature name here] Hide (perhaps different creatures have different bonuses)

[Oneiros]

Hmm... are the armor types still too narrow? If you want a "piece Y made of material X = AC Bonus Z" system, then your current list could have "chain shirt made of leather". I don't think such armor would be practical, except in certain downtown clubs.

(Actually, you probably didn't intend for this to be a result, but just having the two lists could lead one to believe so.)

When you get right down to it, there's really only two levels of protective covering that make a difference: torso (shirt) or full body (suit). (I'd also say that a helmet is a very important level of protection as well, but one that the DnD system doesn't deal with.) Shields are a level considered seperately.

From there, it's really all about the materials. A cuirass, for example, could be made of leather or solid bronze (which, in the system I'm suggesting, would be Shirt: Leather and Shirt: Bronze.)

Also, how the material is fashioned can be important as well. For example, animal skins can be hide or leather. In turn, leather can be laquered, studded or even "scaled". Iron could be rings, scales or solid plates.

This way, there's no need to get hung up on the historical names of the armor pieces first; really, a steel breastplate and a stell cuirass are both Shirt: Plate Steel. It also leaves open the ability to have non-historical fantasy armor with just a description, not added mechanics.

The question then is, do you group armors by Style > Material, or Material > Style? (And the big question after that: How do you assign values to your armor types that are balanced with the core rules?)

As for shields, will the material really make that much difference as to the AC plus they provide? Or would it be better reflected in just their hardness/HPs?

Just some random thoughts.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Well, in all honesty, there is a HUGE difference between a shirt, which is flexible in an extreme and a cuirass (which is a breastplate with a backplate), which is solid and hard. Chain mail, scale mail, splinted armor, and plate armor are all quite different also. It does make a difference. And if you have read the thread that spawned this one, you would that some armor types would likely restrict themselves to certain types of materials. You should realize that armor is more than just an AC score.

[Oneiros]

Raven Bloodmoon, on Apr 27 2006, 04:23 PM, said:

Well, in all honesty, there is a HUGE difference between a shirt, which is flexible in an extreme and a cuirass (which is a breastplate with a backplate), which is solid and hard.

Errr... I think you're taking me a little too literally. By 'shirt' I simply mean armor which only covers the torso (see my previous post.) So in that sense, a steel cuirass is a 'shirt'. (BTW, the cuirass was originally made of leather before it started being fashioned of steel later in history.)

To be clearer, I'll just use 'torso' and 'suit' to differentiate the levels of protection I'm referring to.

Quote

Chain mail, scale mail, splinted armor, and plate armor are all quite different also. It does make a difference. And if you have read the thread that spawned this one, you would that some armor types would likely restrict themselves to certain types of materials.

Right. Which is why I'm suggesting a 'top down' system, going from very broad to detailed, where I think your approach is starting detailed with several different types then trying to find general rules to organize them. At least, that's what I think you're doing, because there haven't been any suggestions yet for mechanics to formulate what you're trying to do. But I think that's because you're still in the details gathering phase of your idea. Not a criticism, just an observation.

The bare bones of the system I'm suggesting would work something like this:

• Level of Protection (Torso or Suit)
  
• Material (Leather, Iron, Steel, etc.)
  
• Form (chain, scale, splint, ect.)

Then assign AC and other properties to the armor based on these combinations.

To recreate historical armors, you'd simply assign values to the three categories to describe them.

Greek breastplate: Torso, bronze, plate.
Arthurian Chainmail: Suit, steel, chain.
Eskimo Bone Armor: Torso, bone, splint.

The next step for my approach would then be to come up with lists for the Material and Form categories. After that would be assigning values.

Quote

You should realize that armor is more than just an AC score.

I do realize that (though, to be fair, you yourself only mention base AC for form and how material modifies it in your initial post.) That's why the DnD armor system also includes Armor Check penalties, Max Dex bonus and movement restrictions which reflect the differing levels of weight, bulkiness and flexibility. Material will also affect Hardness and Hit Points of the armor, though these hardly ever come into play, compared to weapons. (Though I've toyed with ideas to change that, as well, but that is probably suitable for a different thread.)