[Lancifer]

A couple recent threads about gun play has me questioning using low-powered guns as exotic weapons for pirates and some more technological settlements in my campaign. I sketched up three black-powder weapons that all require the same Exotic Weapon proficiency (Black-powder guns). Guns can not pass material damage reduction (i.e. silver and cold iron) to the bullets, but can pass alignment and magic damage reduction. All guns deal piercing type damage.

Rifle
1d12 / x3
Range: 120ft
Max Range: 10 increments (1200 ft)
Special: +2 to attack when firing from a prone position; a level and steady gun is easier to fire. Can not be reloaded from the prone position, but sitting or standing is fine. Takes one full-round to reload, provokes AoO.

Derringer (One shot pistol)
1d8 / x3
Range: 80ft
Max Range: 5 increments (400ft)
Special: Can be dual wielded with normal two-weapon fighting penalties. Takes one standard action to reload, provokes AoO.

Revolver (Six shot pistol)
1d6 / x3
Range: 80ft
Max Range: 5 increments (400ft)
Special: Can be dual wielded with normal two-weapon fighting penalties. Multiple attacks per round possible if enough chambers loaded. A 15th level rogue with a BaB of +11/+6/+1 can fire three shots as a full-round attack provided at least three of the six chambers are loaded in succession; empty chambers still use part of a full attack. It takes two full-rounds to reload all six chambers, or three chambers in one full round or one chamber in a standard action.

Any ideas for further balance, if needed? I am wanting to keep guns more powerful than bow and crossbows in individual damage per shot but with enough reloading pain to have the lower rate of fire make up for it.

[Dthclaw]

Nothing immediately coming to mind.

A good resource for everyone that wants to incorporate pre-modern, 18th/19th century style guns into their campaign:

Legends and Lairs Sorcery and Steam.

Intended mostly as a steampunk sourcebook, but for weapons is almost exclusively devoted to muzzle loader firearms and the earliest of breechloaders/revolvers.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

D20 modern bases their damage for weapons off of the caliber of the bullet. The caliber determines the die type and all guns deal 2 dice of damage. The gun itself tends to determine the range, however. Based on this, I would start by saying that your range increments are insanely long. Even a modern 9mm only has an effective range of about 350 feet (100 meters), and your pistol has a range of 800 feet. Start by slashing that range down to about 30. Your rifle range is good enough and your one shot should have a range of 10. That is a compact gun adn as such has a shorter barrel meaning far less accurate. Also, it will have a smaller bullet, so less range.

As for damage. I assume your rifle is a .22? Or is it a larger caliber? A .22 would deal 2d6 to 2d8 damage. The one-shot would be around a .32 or .380, I assume, so that would be dealing 2d4. The revolver is probably a higher caliber like a .357 or a .44, so make that one 2d6. Also, nix the /x3 crit modifier. Guns deal enough damage without the critical modifier to drop a human in one shot. Trippling the damage is unessary and potentially very unbalancing, even for guns.

[Dthclaw]

I would have to disagree with lowering the crit mod and range on a gun. Guns are, realistically, superior to bows in both range and firepower. To say that a gun has a third of the range of a bow is ridiculous; one should actually have an easier time hitting someone with a gun than with a bow (that whole point and click interface, compared to trying to do an arced trajectory and hoping that the arrow will get there fast enough at longer ranges with bows). Also, gun wounds are usually far worse than an arrow wound. More damage to begin with, yes, but a chunk of lead in the right place should be just as lethal as a greataxe or an arrow.

If you're worried about the power of guns, you basically have two options if you don't want people feeling screwed over.

1- Don't introduce guns
2- Make guns/ammuntion scarce and expensive. If a bullet costs 50+ gp per shot, they'll be quite frugal with such power.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Dthclaw, I suggest you visit this site. It will help you understand that pistols have crap for effective range. I've done some research on this subject, and there are 9mm pistols, moderately common ones, that only have a range of 50 meters. Pistols are short-range weapons that by their very nature are inaccurate. They fire large calibers but with lower muzzel velocities resulting in far lower amounts of damage. That's why very few pistol wounds are fatal. It's the assault weapons that tend to be accurate and more lethal.

If you want some more websites that detail a wealth of information on firearms, just let me know.

[Dthclaw]

Okay, I'll grant pistols have bad range, but under that system is it still reasonable to have bows with their current range increments? To say that hitting a target 100 ft away is far easier with a bow is silly. All the range increments should be scaled, not just guns.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Actually, bows do have better range than pistols. As far as rifles are concerned, it depends on the rifle. If you are looking at modern rifles, they have an effective range of at least a half mile, and there are those that can pick off targets over a mile away. Of course, these are not the typical assault rifle, which tends to have an effective range around a quarter mile or so.

[Dthclaw]

Yes, bows *can* be used at better ranges than pistols. But the problem is that with range increments you're also establishing how easy it is to hit something at a given range. I know full well you can't hit a target with a bow 100+ feet away with the same ease as a target 30 ft away with a 9mm. We're on agreement that pistols should have fairly short effective ranges, but to put bows almost on par with rifles for range is not something I can agree with. You can shorten the bow's range increment and still put it ahead of pistols, but please bear in mind that RI is not just the effective range of a weapon but also how easy it is to hit a target at a given range.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

uh, even a composite longbow is not effective out to a quarter mile. When I say a rifle has a range of half a mile, I am saying that it has a maximum effective range of 2,640 feet. That is a range increment of 265 feet. There are no bows that come close to that. And that is not even a long range rifle. A typical asssaul rifle has a range of around a quarter mile (very short for a rifle), and that is a range increment of 130 feet. That would mean that your AK-47 has the same range as a composite longbow. Which is about right. Now if you want to talk about rifles with some range, let's talk about the ones that have a range increment of 580 feet to 680 feet. No bow in the game, magical or otherwise, has that kind of range. Bows are pathetic next to rifles with proper range increments. The problem is that d20 modern does not give guns proper range increments...

[Dthclaw]

Which is different from what I said how?

[Raven Bloodmoon]

You need to realize that pistols, because of their short barrel, are extremely inaccurate. Especially against a moving target. Evenmoreso as the range to the target increases. A pistol shooting at someone 100 feet away is going to have a heck of a time hitting something whereas a bow will be far more accurate. Remember that movies are generally full of crap. A guy shooting at a moving target thirty feet away is probably going to miss without a heck of a lot of training and practice. An archer should hit his target. The bow is not something to compare to a pistol. Pistols are just useful because you can hide one in your pants. A bow would look kind of funny down your trousers...

[Dthclaw]

I don't get my conceptions about guns from movies, but anyway...

You do realize that with your last two posts you've been restating what I've been arguing (bows should be between pistols and rifles in RI), right?

[Raven Bloodmoon]

You do realize that I haven't changed my stance yet.

[Dthclaw]

So... we're basically arguing about how we're in agreement. 'K.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Yup, we both just spent a couple days padding our post counts with a heated agreement over firearms in DnD. It happens sometimes.