[Raven Bloodmoon]

Here's the deal. Just what makes a god a god? Is it because he is immortal? Nope. Celestials are immortal and they are not gods. Is it because he is powerful? Probably not or dragons would be gods. What about spell-granting? According to Book Of Vile Darkness, fiends can grant spells, yet they are not gods. So what in the name of.....crap. What makes a god a god? ~breathes~

[jack(tim)]

I personally think it is a massive following that makes a god a god... going by my previous DMs statements "a deity cannot have power where there are none that see it." A deity with dead followers is a dead deity. At least as far as the material plane is concerned. While else would they bother with recruiting, no?

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Watch Life of Brian sometime. Not all people with a following recruit. Some people don't even want the following. Personally, I think that any god that recruits is just an arrogant snot. Besides, Hitler has a massive following. Ghandi has even more of a following. Are either of them gods? In short, I don't think that a following makes someone a god. It just makes someone popular.

[Jimp]

Quote

Hitler has a massive following. Ghandi has even more of a following. Are either of them gods

If you put them in a fantasy setting then possbily, as the DM sees fit. In Dieties and Demigods I think it says something about the power of a diety in relation to it's following. This is all in fantasy terms though. In real life I think the concept of godhood is a bit beyond that.
As I see it, gods are beings beyond the comprehension of finite minds. It's a state more closely related to the origin of the universe, unexplicable presances. Though in the terms of a fantasy game then borders have to be drawn and reasons set out. This tends to seperate (in my eyes at least) real life godhood and fantasy godhood.
Fantasy godhood can very from world to world all within the DM's views and decisions. One DM could say it stems from great deads tied with dedication to causes and linked to a person's following. Another could say they have been in existence since before the dawn of time and created all the PCs see. Another could say that gods are beings specially chosen by some unkown force in the multiverse. Another could have divinity linked to the planes of his world's cosmology and the transferance of raw elemental energies to certain beings. Fantasy godhood is a vague concept that is too open to the DM's opinion to really be discussed outside the view of a specific game world and how it operates within that particular universe.
Real life godhood is a concept (again, just my opnion) beyond our current comprehension. Where did the universe come form? Some say the big bang. What caused the big bang? Some say a chemical reaction. Where did those chemicals come from if the universe didn't exist until they reacted? Who knows? Some divine force? The remnants of a previous existance? A being so immensly powerful that it could create such vast spanses of existance? Where would such a being come from? It's a never-ending series of questions, theories and possibilities.

As I see it, discussing the origins of divinity should be kept to either specific game worlds that people have created and use or off the boards completely. Unless game world boundries are set then nobody will have a 'real' answer.

[Dthclaw]

Ye know, I think we're thinking a little too much here.

Time to kick back and watch more TV, Raven. It'll help.

[ladyofdragons]

Well, if you look at the greek (and thus roman) gods, they were a "race" of people (children of the titans). The same with the gods and heros of the Gael, who were the tuatha de danaan (children of the goddess Danu). So, gods as a separate race of beings with powers well and above our own can be an idea. As far as how ascendency to godhood would work within this ideal, perhaps the gods have the abilty to grant membership to powerful beings and can teach them a few tricks to allow them to become demigods.

This is how I work things within my world. The greater (first) gods gave birth to the lesser gods, who mated with mortals to create the demigods. I haven't had any ascendency yet, I'm not sure if it happens within the confines of my campaign.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Thanks Lady! I had actually forgotten to even look at mythologies for answers. To give everyone more of an idea of what is going through my mind, Nyx has always existed and always will. She created the world as well as the First Ones and the Nameless. These are the elder gods about whom you can read in my first few posts (wow, that seems so long ago....). These elder gods had great power and influence but through constant war and some other events, pretty much removed themselves and each other from the big picture. What they also left behind was a material plane full of planets, stars, and shiny things. At some point, a sentient being discovered through self-contemplation that one can shed his mortal shell and rise in power to a new level of existance. Such a person, would in effect, become a spirit on the ethereal plane but retain the ability to project himself into the material world and affect it greatly. Before anyone says "ghost," the person is not undead and he is more powerful than a ghost. I plan on working on a template for this in the near future. In essence, I see it as sort of a halfway point between being a mortal and being divine. However, I have already sort of settled on the idea that mortals can become gods but before I can answer the obvious question, I need more information on what being a god means.

I hope this clerifies things somewhat.

P.S. I am certain a couple of methods of ascension:

Nyx can grant anyone and anything godhood if she feels so inclined. Unfortunately, she only ever takes notice of the world when things are going really badly, which tends to make her pretty peeved.

Just for the frell of it, I figure there should be at least one ritual involving hundreds of souls, some sacrifices and what not that culminates in the leader sucking all of the chi out of all of the participants and using that to boost himself to DR 0.

Some gods ****might**** be able to grant DR 0 to a mortal. This would be restricted to a strange set of dieties that for some reason are shared by all races on all planets. More info on them at a later time. I tend to think that godhood at the level of DR 0 - 15 results from something more internal to the individual creature. The only Greater Deities are the members of the group I just mentioned.

I don't think killing a god will grant you a DR, not even eating his godseed and growing a godfruit tree in your stomache, as was once suggested by our lovely and clever Lady.

[jack(tim)]

For shame Raven... you forgot about mythology? Maybe you need to invest in some supplements for your memory...

Another thing though... the nature of the divinity of gods within a campaign should also vary with the scenario at hand... Even the basis of what my last DM said was solely founded on the ideas presented in Forgotten Realms. Ao banished the gods to walk the plains as mortals and gain their ascension back into their respective planes... thus the Godwars. It was through those times that the deities (in their mortal forms) could only gain true power through the recruiting of other mortals. I guess it became kind of a habit to give power to those with the best and most recruits...

However this is very deity-interuption heavy. Besides this method allows for deity slaying to be a bit easy... Simply slay all of their followers and they lose a lot of power... then just slit their throat...

To each his own I suppose...

[Raven Bloodmoon]

My view of the "normal" gods in the world is that they have since been prohibited from doing more than granting spells, abilities, and occasionally communicating to mortals. They are not allowed to impose their own will on mortals, however. This was mostly because of an incident in the past where one god decided to invade another planet and kill off all the gods there. Nyx didn't like such an unbalancing act, so she sort of chastized the gods for their pettiness and made them withdraw for the most part. DR 0 "deities" will probably live among mortals, but are not powerful enough to really be a real threat (in the grand scheme of things). The Greater Deities answer directly to Nyx (the equivalent of Ao) and thus have influence and power, but are kept from doing too much against Nyx's will. Basically, the less power you have, the more free will you have.

[Gremlin]

My gods are structured so that the standard "gods" only exist because their followers belive they exist. As new souls are created, they give more powers to the gods. Now, believers and follwers are different. A cleric of Pelor still grants power to Nerull, because the cleric still believes the Reaper exists; they just don't worship them. Gods love having worshippers, but merely being included in a pantheon guarantees existence.

Beings like Vecna, however, are ascended gods. They will exist in any pantheon, because they are always going to exist no matter what. The other gods have one limitation - they know they only exist because of faith, and they in turn believe that they will cease to exist should they cease to be believed. This is the ultimate asertion of Decarte - should the god see nobody believe in him, he will cease to exist because he thinks he will. An ascended god does not have this limitation, because they know that they exist. They percived things before their divinity, so they know that they exist no matter if their existence is believed or not. The main ascended god in my campaign, Arcanos, once proved this conjecture by causing every living thing in existence to simultaneously forget about one of the Old Gods, a minor deity named Num - excluding Num herself. After their memories returned, and Num popped into existence from out of nowhere, Arcanos proved himself correct. He later attempted the same experiment with himself, making all beings but himself forget his existence, but he did not vanish.

Power, however, is another thing entirely. The more follwers a god has, the mightier they are. They pool the divine nature of the souls that worship them to add to their own divinity. Naturally, this only applies to those who fully believe in the god; forced conversions do little to further the god's agenda. That's why there are plenty of missionaries in my campaign, but very few forced worshippers - the gods would rather have people who believe in them fully. This applies to both ascended and created gods, of course.

These rules do not apply to the real God, of course. He exists no matter who believes, and although He is weakened the fewer souls believe in Him, He still has power enough to humble any other "god." (Yes, I pull from Christian religion in my campaign, but my players are all ok with it.)

[Valairn]

Gremlin, on Mar 21 2006, 08:42 PM, said:

(Yes, I pull from Christian religion in my campaign, but my players are all ok with it.)

I don't really see the reason for apologizing for that.... If you really want some good influence on what divinity is try some Celtic poetry.

Excuse me, I'm new around here, first post actually. I'll go back to lurking now. Have fun all.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

It's okay to post and even to cast a little necromancy on an old topic. And good suggestion. Do you know where I might find some of tha tpoetry of whch you speak?

[Valairn]

Raven Bloodmoon, on Nov 29 2006, 11:08 PM, said:

It's okay to post and even to cast a little necromancy on an old topic. And good suggestion. Do you know where I might find some of tha tpoetry of whch you speak?

Well amazon.com and a little search for Celtic poetry is good. I'm pretty sure there are soom good websites out there as well, though I can't give you any off the top of my head. I will attempt to get back to this and give you some specifics, but you are probably just as quick to just buy a collection from amazon methinks.