[jack(tim)]

Alright, in my current campaign I have a vigilante human barbarian/sorcerror, and a nearly vile halfling ranger/rogue. In their last encounter the halfling nearly did in the barbarian and now the barbarian wants to snap his neck. I am not sure on what it would take to pull off such a maneuver and would very much like to know your input on this. I was thinking a strength check (barbarian) vs. a constitution check (halfling) with a size related modifier (giving an advantage to the barbarian of course). I'm not worried about any other aspect of the story (contingencies are in place), I just want to know can this move be performed without it being a coup de grace.

[Jimp]

I'm sure we discussed this before a looong time ago?
I'd say a base Strength DC for the ability to break the neck and maybe then opposed Strength and Consitution checks to see if it does happen. It would deffinatly be a grapple situation though so grappling rules would apply.

[Dthclaw]

I would say that he has to hold a pin for at least a round, and then a DC 20+ Str check vs. a DC 20+(Str check result -20) Fort save or die.

[jack(tim)]

Alright, hmm... STR Check vs Fortitude... well that makes it easier for the halfling not to get his neck snapped though... I'll take that into consideration... I'll post back when I have something.

[Dthclaw]

Quote

well that makes it easier for the halfling not to get his neck snapped though

Do you have any idea how much force it takes to wrench vertebrae from their proper position? Let alone break them? More than the vast majority of humans can hope to generate, especially in a chaotic series of moments like grappling entails.

Granted, size should play a role, but snapping a neck barehanded is next to impossible, despite Hollywood.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

That's probably true. There are numerous easier ways to kill someone than snapping their neck. Perhaps the easiest is to trip the person or flip them so that they land supine and then just stamp your foot down on the bridge of their nose. One can also make a case for a monk to be able to kill someone with a kick to the chest, or stamping down on their chest, or even a solid (natural 20) punch to the chest. All of these stop the heart instantly. You might also kill someone with a single hit barehanded with an open palm uppercut to the bottom of the nose (same effect as stomping on their nose). A left hooked uppercut to just under the ribs will compress the liver and force enough blood back up the arteries into the heart to shock it into stopping for a moment. The effect is to force the person to collapse about five seconds later. If you watch boxing, this is called a liver punch and used quite extensively by many Mexican boxers to a profound effect. It also works regardless of the size of the opponent. I would say these are the best real-world ways to kill or incapacitate someone barehanded that I can think of off the top of my hand.

[jack(tim)]

Well, he didn't really care for other ways to kill him, I myself have suggested many methods. He just wanted the satisfaction of snapping an evil (almost vile) halfling rogue/ranger and putting an end to his reign of terror. It's kind of heart warming when you find a good aligned player after having played with evil and neutrals for so long... but I agree it does take a lot of work to snap someone's neck, that is why I asked.

Thanks alot.

[dragonhand777]

As it's already been suggested, I think you need to play out the grapple rules. In my opinion, there is no need for adding any other checks or rolls. The rules for grappling pretty much cover it.

However, if the human and halfling are close in class levels, the barbarian is going to have a tougher time than he thinks.
He'll lose his dex, which even though he has levels in barbarian (uncanny dodge) still makes him prone to sneak attack damage. And he is prone to this every round he has the halfling grappled.
The halfling can make an escape atrist check (if the grapple is successful). And in the event of being grappled he can still perform some actions such as drawing light weapons.
In a grapple, the barbarian can still do damage, but the damage is subdual, and falls under the unarmed damge rules.
Hit point wise, the barbarian's d12 will be offset by his levels in sorcerer (d4).
My point here being, because of class abilities, I think the halfling will more of an advantage (supposing the player was smart enough to ensure his character has a good dex).

Let us know how this situation turns out.

[jack(tim)]

I think I like the strength vs. fortitude check though... It helps me to say more about constitution, one of the most under appreciated scores in all of dnd.

Alright, so I think this issue is resolved for me... Thanks again DND forums members.

[dragonhand777]

jack(tim), on Feb 16 2006, 10:54 AM, said:

I think I like the strength vs. fortitude check though... It helps me to say more about constitution, one of the most under appreciated scores in all of dnd.

Alright, so I think this issue is resolved for me... Thanks again DND forums members.

Your the DM, it's your call. But by ignoring the rules for grappling and doing damage during a grapple, you're being unfair to the players. Your essentially eliminating most of the actions that would have to take place in order for the vigilante to snap the neck of the ranger/rogue. Need I point out your 10th commandment in your sig.? I guess we see how serious you take your own comandments, eh?

However, I strongly disagree with your coment about Constitution. It's what Fortitude Saves are based off of and Hit Points as well. How is it under appreciated?

[jack(tim)]

Strength covers Run, Attack, Swim, Carrying limit, Jump and others.
Dexterity covers a good many skills, ranged attacks, and reflex adjustment both in saves and defense.
Constitution has HP, Concentration (Rarely used by many people), and Fortitude.
Wisdom covers a good many skills, spells for some spell casters, and the will save.
Intelligence covers another good many skills, skill points, and bonus languages.
Charisma covers the final lot of skills, spells for sorcerrors and bards.

Constitution is only considered by most of the players I found as a simple stat only truly useful as a HP increaser. Which is why my new campaign will begin to hurt a bit more... I'm not saying it's under-used in general but just under-used in my group at the least.

And as for it hurting the Halfling's chances technically he is alot better off than the Barbarian for the purposes of that attack. The barbarians best hopes is for D20 +5 (I do believe) from STR and size relation modifier. The Halfling has many levels in Rogue and Ranger thus giving him a higher fortitude bonus. D20 +5 (or somewhere close) and that is before his constitution modifier (which is around a +3)... So I think that the Halfling has a very good chance of surviving this attempt.

Now grappling will come into play. That is a given. You just can't have someone run up and snap someone's neck unless it is a surprise attack and they catch their victim completely off guard, and even then I find this check to be very accurate.

I really don't see how you came to say that this is unfair to the halfling. As he gains more levels he becomes more and more resistant to having his neck snapped (via the increased fort save modifier), while the barbarian can only add +1 to his necksnapping ability at every eighth level (by adding both of his ability points to strength). Now sure he could take a bull's strength potion and tip the scales in his favor, but he doesn't really know much about those... so this will be interesting to see played out.

[jack(tim)]

So unless anyone else has any objections I would like to turn this thread over to a new type of attack.

One of my players has decidide to go DM as a temp and let me take a break and play for once. I am a Sorcerror/Monk 1/1 and I am trying to figure out how to combine a small fire spell and my ki strike to make the all famous Hadouken/Dragon Fist Punch. My thoughts was to use Quicken Spell on Burning Hands, or Fireball or something closely related, and use Ki Strike as well. Unfortunately Quicken spell does not work with Sorcerror Spells.

Any input would be helpful.

[dragonhand777]

dragonhand777, on Feb 14 2006, 03:14 PM, said:

However, if the human and halfling are close in class levels, the barbarian is going to have a tougher time than he thinks.

jack(tim), on Feb 16 2006, 10:54 AM, said:

I think I like the strength vs. fortitude check though...

dragonhand777, on Feb 16 2006, 03:00 PM, said:

Your the DM, it's your call. But by ignoring the rules for grappling and doing damage during a grapple, you're being unfair to the players.

jack(tim), on Feb 17 2006, 11:45 AM, said:

Now grappling will come into play...
I really don't see how you came to say that this is unfair to the halfling.

1st. I never did say it was unfair to the halfling. Quite the opposite.
2nd. I was under the impression you were just going with the Str. Vs Fort.

[jack(tim)]

I was just going to use that check to see if he is successful in snapping his neck. Of course he needs to perform a grapple to get it started.

I was just going to use that check to see if he is successful in snapping his neck. Of course he needs to perform a grapple to get it started.

But back to my new Idea... does anyone know how to combine Ki Strike with a fireball like spell??

[Rintaran]

I think it might be better to put that in a new topic jack(tim).