[Vaskre]

I was thinking last night about the class itself. (I'm writing up a charsheet right now for a Favored Soul / Sorc.)

Anyways, I was thinking about how gimped they get compared to a wizard in the sense of metamagic. Especially at epic.

Example: Epic wizard with the right feats can sling a level 8 spell as quickened for a level 9 slot.

Which means he can basically throw out a level 8 and 9 spell (or Epic if it's standard action) every turn.

Sorcerer can throw out only one spell -- he can't quicken anything due to the fact that casting a metamagic spell requires him to use a full-round action, which defeats the purpose.

Further, the Sorcerer is limited in his spell choices...very, very few, compared to the Wizard's library of spells. Wizards additionally get extra feats. Sorcs don't.

The only thing the Sorcerer has that the wizard doesn't is extra spells per day. (And not much.)

Oh, and he can use diplomacy effectively (high cha for casting) and leadership, but on that same note the wizard has more skill points. (int for casting)

[WoeTheSinner]

First let me point out htat I am a big sorc fan, but at very high levels the wizzies beat the sorcerers hads down. Which is not too surprising since they beat everyone hands down at very high levels.

Where the sorc shines is lvl 12-20. If you want pure arcane death dealing the sorc is where you go. I mean a guy that can stroll up to a few hundred poor souls and lay down spell after spell after spell after spell...all day long...as compared to a lvl 15 wiz...

My classic example is when I cast charm person 12 times...untill the lvl 20 rogue rolled a 1...

the thing to keep in mind with wizards is that they will almost always be better than a sorc in a situation they can prepare for...but an unprepared wizzard can be next to useless...if all you had was fire spells prepared because you thought u were fighting an ice giant and you end up fighting a fire giant...your kinda screwed...

a well planned sorc can be very flexible...what you need to remember when picking spells is to pick spells that work best when you cast them over an over and over and OVER

[Jimp]

I agree with Woe on the strengths of a sorcerer. I'm a fan of them myself I also agree with Vaskre's points on the weakness' of a sorcerer. I was thinking about beefing the sorcerer a little buy giving some bloodline bonuses as part of the class, since their ability comes from within/is born into them. Though that mightn't work very well, I'll have to read into it and check it through some more.

[Vaskre]

It'd be nice if someone just gave them a bone and tossed in one or two bonus feats available through the levels, and maybe someone added a feat with really high pre-requisites to make using metamagic on a sorc / favored soul as a free (or maybe a move) action. I.e., you could cast a quickened spell as a move action (can't move now, but at least you can throw out a quickened spell), and you can't use any other metamagic with that (don't have any other move actions), but you could still sling a standard spell.

Would need a bit more work I guess, but it's just a thought.

[Dthclaw]

I would personally up the number of spells they get or toss in something similar to what the Wu Jen gets with Spell Secret (pick # spells; they are now permanently affected with a metamagic feat without upping the slot level).

Or make it so that they can learn spells, but have a much harder time doing it (i.e., they get no retry or the DC is +20).

Or hell, give them a little better combat or save capability. Change their attack and/or save progression.

Or give them an XP discount on improving familiars (I use that now for every caster with familiars... just too freaking cool). Attached the stuff on that. Full text from L&L: Spells and Spellcraft.

Or give them the option of turning one of their known spells into an X/day spell-like ability.

Just a few thoughts.

[Dthclaw]

Ooh! A thought!

Give them their choice of something mentioned! Make it even more so that each sorcerer is something really unique.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Remember that upon becoming epic, the sorcerer can take and gain the full benefit of the Automatic Quicken Spell feat. Not only are his spells now free actions when he wants them to be, but they don't even take up a higher spell slot.

Now you can cast 2 fireballs per round....though it would still take you 21 rounds to cast all possible uses of fireball (assuming no additional spell uses through high Cha)

[RedSlayer]

In my game, when dealing with sorcerors and metamagic, is that the casting time is shifted to the next higher equivilant action. A quickend spell (a Swift Action) now uses up a move action; move= standard; standard=full.

this allows the sorceror the benifit of quicken spell without the full advantage that a wizard gets out of it. sorceror using quicken spell can now cast a second spell, and any other standard actions, but he cannot do any full round ones. (such as casting cetain spells, full attack, another metamagic spell, etc.)

i find this to be an appropriate balance.

if you are going to give a sorceror bonus feats, then only allow them metamagic or draconic ones. do not allow them item creation.

[Dthclaw]

Yeah, that makes sense Red. Mebbe give them access to the same number of bonus feats as a Wizard, but change the ones they can get.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Personally, instead of bonus feats, I'd make it easier for them to use metamaic feats. Magic is suppose to be innate for them, so they would probably have a better grasp of it. Perhaps every X levels, they can choose a metamagic feat they know. The spell level increase is decreased by 1. You can apply it to the same feat multiple times, the spell level increase can never be less than zero (applying a metamagic feat can never decrease a spell's level). In the case of Heighten Spell, the spell is cast as a higher-level spell, but it consumes a slot 1 level (per application of this ability) lower than the desired level. Heightened spells still cannot be cast at a level higher than the sorcerer is able to cast.

Each sorcerer would be very different this way, as one might maximize everything he casts and another might change the shapes of his spells, and still another may make no sounds when casting. And I think it plays into the innate sorcery thing.

[paul gilbert]

WoeTheSinner, on Nov 11 2005, 09:21 PM, said:

First let me point out htat I am a big sorc fan, but at very high levels the wizzies beat the sorcerers hads down. Which is not too surprising since they beat everyone hands down at very high levels.

Where the sorc shines is lvl 12-20. If you want pure arcane death dealing the sorc is where you go. I mean a guy that can stroll up to a few hundred poor souls and lay down spell after spell after spell after spell...all day long...as compared to a lvl 15 wiz...

My classic example is when I cast charm person 12 times...untill the lvl 20 rogue rolled a 1...

the thing to keep in mind with wizards is that they will almost always be better than a sorc in a situation they can prepare for...but an unprepared wizzard can be next to useless...if all you had was fire spells prepared because you thought u were fighting an ice giant and you end up fighting a fire giant...your kinda screwed...

a well planned sorc can be very flexible...what you need to remember when picking spells is to pick spells that work best when you cast them over an over and over and OVER

I have to wait like 9 levels before my sorc is any good. For know i think i will sit back and enjoy the RPG side.

[dragonhand777]

In my group we use a varriant sorcerer inspired by Monte Cook's version from AU/AE series of varriant rules.

Basically the sorcerer gets d6 hit die and an ability similar to the Eschew Materials feat. The sorcerer no longer needs spell components regardless of cost, but for every 100gp cost of the component, the character looses one fourth the cost in xp (4 experiance points for 100gp).

However, the sorcerer may still use components if he or she desires and avoid the xp loss.

[Jimp]

That actually sounds like a really good varaint. In my opinion at least.
I downloaded a Class Creation guide from www.community3e.com and it had a point system for balancing classes. According to the point system the sorcerer balances with the wizard with the extra point from the higher spells per day count. I guess it's sort of like the human racial advantage, it's only an advantage if you get all 20 levels.
The bonus feats still sound like a good idea to me. Maybe some of the Draconic feats from Complete Arcane?

[jack(tim)]

I'm a big fan of both classes to be truthful, but it really depends on the function of the spell caster to depict if the character is good or bad. Typically wizards are more like the types (to me at least) to be comissioned (or prepare) in each area the party enters. However Sorcerrors are your basic, "If that doesn't work, I'll try something else" casters that are extremely helpful as healers (where else would you find a char versitile enough to go straight from throwing fireballs to healing bashed and burned party members?) I think that the powers to be did a good job of balancing the classes, and the only true choice in making a spell caster is quanity (Sorcerrors) or quality (Wizards)? Never underestimate the power of weak spells in large numbers (right woe?).

[Dthclaw]

Um, sorcs can't heal, jack. They are limited to using the same spells and items as wizards (with a very few exceptions in the department of rings and a few wondrous items that boost spell capacity).