[Axel]

RedSlayer, on Aug 10 2005, 02:39 AM, said:

Under your system, how would sorcerors get CHA bonus?  It seems that it would be innate, how can they increase there own power by takeing etiqutte lessons?

Since there's no logical reason for charisma to be the sorcerer's primary spellcasting stat, I wouldn't worry about it.

[Dthclaw]

Um, Charisma makes perfect sense for the sorcerer attribute. After all, Charisma covers more than just appearance: it's also force of personality and sense of self, which is important if you're channeling a part of your soul to power your innate magics.

[Axel]

How does that follow? Charisma is interpersonal ability, combining attractiveness with social skill. Look at every charisma modifier, every charisma based skill. Should a dwarf's strength of will be modified because dwarves tend to seem gruff to other races? Force of will, by deffinition, is a wisdom based ability.
I'm convinced that sorcerers used charisma because the designer of the class was focusing on roll-playing and thus could find no use for the ability, as it didn't serve any purpose during hack-and-slash. Sorcerers develop innate talents through a hodge-podge of experimentation, personal experience, and intuition. They should be using wisdom.

[Dthclaw]

Oooookay... by that logic nothing anywhere should have any spell-like or supernatural ability based on its charisma. I, for one, am not going to buy it.

At any rate, you'll definitely need more safeguards before implementing this sort of system, because it is begging to be abused.

[RedSlayer]

OT: I will admit he has a point with the dwarves.

[Axel]

Actually, I'd say that as a general principle nothing should have any supernatural abiltities based on charisma, correct. There's no logic behind it. If you look at what charisma is used for and how it is modified, and then consider whether or not this makes any sense in a spell-casting environment the answer is invariably no.
You can make a case for Bards, but I disagree with Bards having the ability to cast spells at all.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

You'd disagree with wizards existing if we all wouldn't jump down your throat for it.

Charisma is a person's force of personality and sense of self. Not will. Any innate spellcasting requires a secure sense of self in order to manipulate one's spirit and use it to create magical effects, be they spells or spell-like abilities.

[RedSlayer]

i agree with that, but why is it that dwarves receive a -2 to that? Arent they just as personalble as a human? Or half orcs? Doesnt seem right. I think that they should be broken up into 2 different skills or something, just doesnt make sence

[Axel]

That's because the person who came up with using charisma wasn't trying aiming for any kind of sense. He was a roll-player who thought charisma was useless.
Look at what charisma is used for. Diplomacy, Intimidate; look at what it's modified for, being gruff or distrusted. Tell me how this is supposed to relate to spellcasting. It doesn't. Especially not for Sorcerers, who learn to master their innate powers through experimentation and intuition; they should be using wisdom. You might make a case for Clerics using charisma, since they get their powers from their god. Maybe even Shamans, because they have to get their spells from the spirits. But it'd have to be a [WOMBAT] good case, either way.

Oh, and I wouldn't give a [BROWNIES] about people jumping down my throat.

[RedSlayer]

Im going ahead and agreeing with axel on that, it does not make any sence. Never really thought about it that way....Axel, you are 100% right on this one, they are using charisma as two different definitions and its...dare i say it...."Inconsistant"

Sorceroers using wisdom makes more and more sence to me. As to clerics using charisma, i think we defeated the charisma and spellcasting thing all together.

think about it... A dwarf may be gruff, blunt, grotesque even, all things that be negative towards charisma...but because that dwarf isnt a great diplomat, that doesnt mean he cant be one of the most powerful sorcerers to ever walk the earth! He shouldnt get a disadvantage to his spellcasting cause hes a little apart from society!

[Axel]

Gods, that's a first. I've never convinced anyone of anything before. I gotta have a lie down....

[Jimp]

I think a comlieness penalty would be better than a charisma one for Dwarves. Though if you were using the comliness stat, how would you bork that with months of training?

[Axel]

Can you see any possible use for a Comeliness modifier to any skill?
Anyway, I'd say a concerted effort to lose weight, tone muscles, adopt more favorable manners of dress, and improve personal grooming.

[blacxthornE]

www.dictionary.com said:

Charisma
1. a. A rare personal quality attributed to leaders who arouse fervent popular devotion and enthusiasm.
b. Personal magnetism or charm: a television news program famed for the charisma of its anchors.
2. Christianity. An extraordinary power, such as the ability to perform miracles, granted by the Holy Spirit.

As you can see, it does make sense for this ability to be related to personality, charm and innate ability to spellcast. The innate ability part is probably inspired by the religious aspect of charisma. It's a matter of terminology.

There will be some issues when you get these together related to the same ability, but it's not a bigger issue than the ones with Wisdom affecting senses and willpower, Constitution affecting toughness and concentration, or even Strength affecting damage and melee attack. Maybe assuming that a grim personality affects innate ability to spellcast is not that right. But the main idea of the main abilities is that all aspects of a character are collected under six and only six categories. This leads to some compromises. We can deal with it.

And this charisma thing has gone too OT.

[Axel]

Actually, it does cause more problems. There is a certain logic behind your physical strength affecting how accurately you can handle a melee weapon and the damage you can inflict with it, there is a certain logic behind you innate reasoning affecting both how you interpret the information you glean from your senses and how you deal with stressful situations. Although you're correct that there's no logic behind a connection between concentration and constitution.
And your deffinition still provides no grounding for Sorcerer spellcasting. If anything it can be used to support using charisma for Clerics.