[Dthclaw]

1. Replacements for the astral plane... hmm... umm... how about a system of unmarked portals that require very specific keys in order to travel to a similar portal on another plane? Or perhaps only functioning at very specific times?

2. Forcing specialization sounds okay to me. You can do it with sorcs, too, using spheres (more like elemental specializations, really). I don't have the info right in front of me, but the suggestion was that sorcerers could specialize by choosing spheres such as fire, water, darkness, etc. with associated spells for them. It would require some work to compile what spells fall into which spheres, but it would work (just a suggestion, include something like AoW Cosmos sphere with a little of everything but lower high-level spells).

[Jimp]

In response to Dthclaw's post,
An idea I have for sorcerers is that theyre 'sphere' choices is that whatever they choose like say water or earth would have to be a reflection of their personality, since thier spellcasting comes from within. For example, an easygoing sorcerer might choose Air as his sphere, a very confidant sorcerer might choose Fire and a very stubborn sorcerer might choose Earth. Exactly what spheres there are to choose from will need some work though. Ideas are welcome

[Dthclaw]

Well... I'd suggest the traditional four elements, Light, Darkness, a "universal" sphere (Cosmos?), and perhaps a triad of Body, Mind, and Soul (focusing on various buffs and enchantments, such as charm or iron body). I really don't have the mental energy (let alone time - moving back to college tommorrow) to decide what spells fall into which spheres, but just tossing out some suggestions.

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

To RedSlayer:

1) What you are describing here is basically what happens in the Amber novels by Roger Zelazny.

General:

1) What is the purpose of tossing out the Astral Plane? I see no real purpose to doing so.

2) Forced specialization is somewhat of a jip. I personally hate it because some specializations get off a little better than other ones.

[WoeTheSinner]

It is most definitely true that some specializations get of better than otehrs power wise. But as always that depends on what type of game and waht type of cahracter you play. I don't think forcing a specialization on a wizard would be unbalancing really, as long as they can choose their specialization. As far as sorcerers are concerned...i'l biased here...I don't think their magic should be specialized, they dont really learn it ...they jsut kind of do it...but I can see where you are coming from. So if I had to choose I would go for the elemental path. IE he picks up all the fire related spells or allt he electrical spells etc etc makes sense to progress from shocking grasp to lightning bolt to chain lightning etc etc...the only problem is sitting down and figuring out where each spell goes and what to do witht he ones that dont really fit at all and then balancing it all out so an air sorc wont be godlike while an earth sorc is basicaly crap etc etc

An esy way would be to do a direct translation. Earth=Necromancy+conjuration+whatever....Air=evocation+illusion+....

Thoguh i think that would only limit a few schools...anyhoo im not thinking clearly right now kinda sick and its going to be a long long month > planes trains and automobiles

[Jimp]

Maybe for sorcerers a system like the cleric domains could work? A sorcerer choose a domain of focus and gains extra spells from it?

[Raven Bloodmoon]

My personal opinion on sorcerous magic is that it should be more raw than that of other classes. As it is natural talent, it should generally be energy-based and a tad more wild. And a tie-in with Axel, who I is worming into my head and making me question the entire Charisma ability in general, perhaps involve Will saves somehow. Just random thougts though.

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

Well, going with the entire sphere idea, there are those little bloodline feats that you can force a sorceror to take at first level, which would give it some extra spells that it gets at certain levels. I think you can find information for bloodlines in Unearthed Arcana or Complete Arcane. I know that you can find some stuff in Dragon magazines but I don't know which ones off the top of my head.

[Jimp]

For the 'spheres' idea, what do you all think of the Arcan Domains found here: http://www.d20srd.or...cterClasses.htm
It's under the Wizard variant but I could alawys use it for sorcerers instead. Example: Tim is a 1st level sorcerer. He want's to focus his inner magic strength on Cold spells so he chooses the Cold domain. As a 1st level sorcerer he can cast level 0 and level 1 spells. He will automatically learn Ray of Frost (lvl 0) and Chill Touch (lvl 1) as they are the domiain spells for those levels. He can cast these spells 1 extra time per day, like a cleric would use his domaion slot, though he can use these spells as part of his regular spells per day allowance too.

Also as house rule, when caster class like wizard, sorcerer, cleric or druid (not half casters like rangers or paladins) uses up all their spells for the day they become fatigued. Sounds reasonable?

[Raven Bloodmoon]

In a bizzare sort of parallel evolution, I am looking into the same sort of thing for sorcerers, but for different reasons. Either way, here is what I am doing:

Sorcerers gain their magical aptitude from some anscestor or another that is (in my world) either fey, dragon, giant, or an outsider. As a result, the sorcerer has a few interesting physical traits that do not impact game play and also a set of bloodline spells available to him. These are 10 spells, one of each level. The first of which is always prestidigitation. The others merely apply to the Creature Type of the progenitor. Additionally, the highest level spell from the chosen bloodline sphere available is not only limited by the character's Wisdom (yes, i altered it), but also by the number of generations that have passed sinse the union. This is equal to Generation - 1. So an 11th generation sorcerer can only cast cantrips from his bloodline sphere. No sorcerer can be more than 11 generations from a progenitor. In cases of multiple progenitors, the sorcerer must pick at first level which one applies. Only this one will apply for the rest of his life.

Sorcerers also choose a sphere of magic to gain spells from. This sphere is very narrow and pertains only to a group of related spells. The sorcerer can cast any spell from this sphere, but as there will likely be no more than 20 spells in a sphere, there is no limit to the number of possible spells known. These are in addition to the sorcerer's bloodline sphere. A given sphere also grants a related power to the sorcerer ranging from energy resistance, to turn/rebuke attempts, to flight, to special abilities. Generally, these are limited to multiple uses per day.

Sorcerers do not need material components to cast spells. Their magic is innate. That means that they automatically benefit from the Eschew Material feat. For any material components that cost more than 1 gp, the sorcerer must burn XP = GP Cost / 25, rounded up. This can drop a sorcerer to a lower level.

Sorcerers do not automatically gain a familiar, although the ability may be granted as a sphere of magic power (see above).

Every four levels, a sorcerer gains a bonus feat that can be either any metamagic feat or any of the following feats, so long as she meets all the perquisites: Arcane Mastery, Augment Summoning, Combat Casting, Extra Slot, Improved Counterspell, Innate Spell, Magical Aptitude, Practiced Spellcaster, Spell Penetration, and Greater Spell Penetration.

Because sorcerers are so specialized and their talent is natural, they get better at casting what they know as time goes on. At fifth level and every five levels thereafter, a sorcerer can ignore one level of spell level increase imposed by a metamagic feat. This can never lower the level of a spell below what it normally is. Thus at 20th level, a sorcerer can negate the level increase from a spell heightened four levels or a maximized silenced spell or a still silent enlarged extended spell. (I think I added that right...) Thus a sorcerer makes up for his lack of versatility in which spells he can cast by better manipulating the ones he can cast.

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

The only problem I have is with the last part of your post. Being able to ignore the spell level increase by 4 at 20th level and also having an extra 5 feats at that time kinda unbalances the sorc. Personally, I would spread out the ignoring thing to 1 every 10 levels and give them feats as a wizard if you really want to give them the feats. Either that or choose either the feats or the ignore spell level increase as the added ability sorcs get.

Also, just so you know, the bloodline thing can be found in either Unearthed Arcana or Complete Arcane.

[Jimp]

Wow RedSlayer, I really like that idea! Look's like that's done I was just after finished my sorcerer spheres though >_< Looking back over my sphere system I could see how powergamers might go for all out battle stats with it =/