[Granola]

So I've come to you as a supplicant, looking for your creative input to help me past a few worldbuilding roadblocks...

Oh yeah, it's also my first post here so, Hey

The Campaign setting I'm working on is fairly standard d20 in most respects. Regular physics and geography. I've attached a map of the world. The colours represent basic biomes/climatic zones: Dark Green is cold forests and tundra on the edges and Tropical Forest in the middle, Light Green is Temperate forest and Plains, Dark Yellow is Sub-Tropical Plains and Scrublands, Bright Yellow is desert and the Grey and Pink shapes are major Mountain Ranges. Lots of work still to be done here... don't worry about that.

 Alban__s_Retreat_Pre_Clataclysm.JPG (272.88K)
Number of downloads: 24

Here's the story so far:

A god, from a prime material plane with lots of gods and divine politics, grows tired of the constant squabling amongst the deities and so creates a new prime material plane, a new world, where said god (Alban) can go and rest. Alban begins by falling asleep, the World and all it contains are created by Alban's dreams.

Four races arise on the World, the Med, the Hob, the Wid and the Kol. These are Proto-races: The Med will become Humans, Elves and Orcs, the Hob will become Goblins, Hobgoblins and Bugbears, the Wid will become Dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings and the Kol will become the Kobolds. The Med are on continent D, the Kol on A, the Wid on B and the Hob on C.

Much time, known as the Dreamtime (prehistoric mythic time), passes. The Four Folk live a simple existence of hunting and gathering, with stone age tools and tech. Eventually other beings learn of the World of Alban's Retreat, and look on it as fertile ground for colonization and exploitation. These beings are the Great Wyrms, the Dragons.

The Dragons settle in Alban's Retreat, enslaving many of the Folk and putting them to work building cities, monuments and luxury items. From the Wyrms the Folk learn much as well: rudimentary metalworking and building as well as Magic.

More time passes...

Well, they say that Nature abhors a Vacuum and I've decided to use that principle for the Deities of this Campaign. In the begining there is only Alban, the Creator, who slumbers in eternal rest at the Heart of the World.

Eventually mortal beings ascend to become Deities. The first 9 to Ascend are the following Archetypes: Fire, ToolMaker, Trickster, Shadow, Death, GreenMan, EarthMother, SavageWarrior, Music.

In the end, conflict brews between the Wyrms and the Mortal Folk and the Gods pick sides. Fire and ToolMaker join with the Wyrms; GreenMan, EarthMother, SavageWarrior and Music oppose the Wyrms while Trickster, Shadow and Death remain neutral and aloof from the Conflict.

Eventually the Mortal Folk and their Divine Allies prevail; those Wyrms that aren't killed are banished from the World (and in effect the plane, since Alban's Retreat is the only physical 'world' on this version of the prime material plane).

The Dragon Wars cause Alban's rest to become disturbed, and though Alban doesn't wake, Alban's troubled sleep upsets the World, which combined with the Dragon Wars is a fair sized catastrophe, killing most of the Folk and effecting minor changes to the Face of the World (moving some Rivers, crushing some Mountains, creating some inland seas, etc...).

After the end of the Dragon Wars, the Folk evolve into the 'modern' races (elves, dwarves, humans, goblins etc...) and continue the business of discovering agriculture, cities and metalworking (much of this knowledge was lost in the Cataclysm of the Dragon Wars).

So at this point I'm seeking advice on the following: How can I develop the Gods and their early division into a long term source of conflict. I like settings where the Gods aren't black and white (Good and Evil) and are ascended mortals, with all their attendant foibles. Part of my creative roadblock at this point is how to define the opposing camps of Deities, beyond the simple "They are bad while They are good". I have no plans to bring Dragons back and my Deities will have only one alignment (Chaotic or Neutral or Good, etc...), so whorshipers can be very diverse and follow different aspects of a deity (for example: Lawful gods can be followed by Lawful Good, Neutral or Evil folk). I plan to add more Gods to the pantheon, as time progresses.

Please suggest any new archetypes you can think of for new Gods. Please also suggest any way of developing the division between the Gods into long term (as in Eons) discord and factioning. One example in books I can give for what I'm aiming for is the Steven Erikson series 'Malazan Book of the Fallen' with the Immortal Houses (if that helps... great series by the way).

[Dthclaw]

Well, I don't quite know what you're aiming for in your campaign (as far as story and all), so I would suggest taking a look at Deities and Demigods. It has rules for creating religions and the deities served by them, and sample portfolios and a good list of domains. Decide, too, how big (if any) of a pantheon you want.

[Granola]

Thanks Dthclaw,

I've actually been wondering about Deities and Demigods, Haven't looked at the 3rd ed. version as of yet, just the ancient one (which is in a box somewhere...). Right now I'm mostly focusing on build the setting, historical first and then contmeporary socio-political, however, I can't help but think a little on the actual plot arc for the PCs.

As to what the plan is: The game will be set thousands of years after the Dragon Wars. Effectively, the setting will be a Medeaeval European flavour. I've been reading Expeditious Press' "A Magical Medieval Society" lately and hope to eventually embroil the PCs in running a manor and dealing with feudal obligation and the like. I'm also toying with the idea of the 'Arch-Opponent' being beholders. I figure I'll reward them with a small amount of land, and a minor title (Knight or Baronet or something equally chintzy). They'll become lords of a whole square mile! Eventually beholders will threaten the realm, maybe even from directly below the PCs own land! Pretty rough idea so far.

A little more as to the setting: The part of the world where the game is being set will be recently emerged out of a Dark Ages. Prior to the Story era, a large Hobgoblin empire (think Rome) ruled the game area, and, like many empires, degenerated and was invaded by migrating 'Barbarians' (Humans, Orcs and Halflings). The game will be set about 400-500 years after the 'offical' collapse of the Hobgoblin empire, in a political climate of numerous Kingdoms and Duchies, large and small.

I guess the biggest thing I'm looking for is Interesting Ideas in regards to creating Religious squables in a polytheistic cosmology that isn't a repeat of "The Good Gods versus The Bad Gods". BTW, there are no racial gods...

Cheers

Granola

[Dthclaw]

Well, religious squabbling between similar alignments is actually pretty easily. I'll give a couple of examples using the deities presented in the PHB.

Good v. Good: After hundreds of years of technological evolution, the Dwarfs have finally reached the point where their growth requires more than the mountains can provide. With the blessings of the faith of Moradin (LG), the Dwarves begin to harvest large amounts of lumber from the forests all around their mountains. Before long, however, elvish worshippers of Correlan Larethion and Ehlonna (CG and NG, respectively) take notice and try to get the Dwarves to stop. They refuse (because they really don't have much other choice), and the Elves begin to sabotage the Dwarvish efforts. Before long, there is a bitter conflict between both sides and war might even break out before long.

Neutral v. Neutral: Boccob and St. Cuthbert's worshippers start grinding against each other when a high priest of the god of magic is accused of breaking several laws in the country but refuses to submit to judgment by the followers of the Cudgel.

Evil v. Evil: Happens every day, doesn't really need a reason.

Remember, just because they may be similar alignments and even outlooks, deities can still have wildly different views as to what is appropriate and what isn't. In fact, their goals are more likely to cause conflict than their alignments.

Hope that helps some.

[blacxthornE]

Okay... Let's see... A god-dreamed world created by a bored deity, huh? Interesting.

I hope Alex never reads the part where you mention the ascended gods . (j/k)

I gotta say that the story is good but far from complete. I suggest that before you expand the story, you should fill in the blanks.

Here are some examples:
- Where do the Great Wyrms come from?
- How do the dragons know about metalworking? Don't suppose they work metal themselves.
I always thought that the normal dragons we know about have so much knowledge not because they "just know", but because they live long and experience and observe many things. Their knowledge about mining, for example, would probably come mainly from the dwarves and secondarily other races, because they don't mine themselves...
So, if they don't work metal themselves (learn by experience), and the mortals don't know about metalworking (learn by observation), how do the great wyrms know that?
- What are the Dragon Wars exactly about? Why does such a war even start?
- Just how powerful are the Dragons? More than Gods? 'Cause that's what I assume when you say that the gods join the mortals and they still cannot even kill all the dragons but merely banish the ones not killed. If the dragons are more powerful than gods, where do they come from? Do they precede gods? If they do, what does it mean to ascend to godhood? Do gods in turn ascend to be wyrms? If the gods are more powerful than the wyrms, why can't they turn the dragons to dust? etc etc

[Granola]

Thanks for the responses!

DthClaw: Good points about the possibility of similarily aligned religions being in conflict. I'm not averse to 2 similar factions competing (in some ways they are MORE likely to be rivals, I'd think...) I just don't want to use a traditional Good Vs. Evil setting, I'm more into shades of grey.

blacxthornE: Cheers, Lot's of great questions... let me see...

The Dragons have come from "off plane", from some other prime material plane, which one isn't really important. They came because the Alban's Retreat was so ripe and easy to pluck. I figured that the Dragons did know about metalworking, at least enough to educate some gifted mortal folk. Remember that some Dragons are able to polymorph. I was also envisioning that the metalworking required by the Dragons was mostly ornamental (Gold, silver and other precious metals). Perhaps a few Dragons returned back to their plane of origin to specifically learn some metallurgy

The Dragon Wars were basically about freedom and self-determination. The Folk were sick of being enslaved (or at least most were) and the newly ascended Deities wanted sole control of "Their" World. I was also envisioning that one on one, the Dragons were not as powerful as the Gods, but many Dragons could gang up on a God and kill them (they are immortal in the 'Natural Causes' sense). I guess I also forgot to mention that Thousands of Mortals fought on both sides of the conflict, whether as free folk or slave warriors (for the Wyrms). A couple of the Gods were also working with the Dragons... (maybe I should have a God or 2 killed off during the conflict... hmmm, hadn't thought of that)

As to why the Gods can't just disintegrate all the Dragons, well... (other than it would make for a boring story) I figured that since the Dragons were extra-planar with respect to the Gods, the Gods have less direct power over the Dragons than they would over a 'native' being.

Remember that all this background will be the Myths of this campaign setting, rather like stories of the Tower of Babel or The Greek Titans... I guess it doesn't have to be 100% plausible (perhaps the Gods weren't as potent back then as they are now?).


So... Please keep any questions and comments coming! They're great for making me think! Any other suggestions for Divine archetypes would be great. I'm also still stumped on how to set up contemporary factions for the Gods.

Cheers,

Granola

[blacxthornE]

Well, this is more like it. That's what I, personally, would like about a campaign setting. Should a campaign setting have a legend, I would want every detail about it so I won't be caught off-guard while DMing based on that legend. Especially if this legend is about the creation of the material plane and an important part of history, I think you should fill in every blank. For example, if a deity *can* be killed, there should be certain ways for that. You didn't mention it at first, however, and that's why I asked. Now I know that the gods in Alban's Retreat CS are immortal in a greek myth kinda way.

I think any legend must be 100% plausable. Maybe not detailed, not with all the pieces in the picture; every piece, however, should fit another. I would prefer a legend that says "the dragons came from a primal off-plane, over which the deities of <put the name of your cosmology here> have no power, to this material plane that they saw was ripe and easy to take over. They enslaved the folk and (...). In a search of freedom, the mortals started a war against their tyrants, as soon as the gods began to fight the wyrms, who they considered a tremendous threat." over "the dragons came, enslaved people, fought a war, and were banished". You can always leave holes like a war with a long forgotten reason. But make sure to mention that "this" part of the legend is known to no one. Remember that the more detail you think about the better satisfaction your legends provide. So, don't think that the background is less significant than any adventure people play using your campaign setting. AFAIAC every legend should be much more significant than any adventure, and that's why they are legends. Besides, legends provide very useful material to adventures: A lost relic, a piece of information, an "echo" of a long-gone deed, an immortal that personally remembers those days, etc.

[Axel]

The legends that are handed down don't have to be plausable. Look at the ridiculous things people believe nowadays.

[Granola]

I'd have to agree with Axel here. I should also point out that I consider everything up to and including the Dragon Wars, not Legend but Myth as far as the PCs are concerned and myth is even more fanciful than legend. I also wasn't originally posting (in the first post) all I'd developed, just a summary for the sake of brevity.

I love the critique though. Already got my mind churning in new ways. When brainstorms meet is it a brainicane?

Nobody has yet spoken to the idea of non-traditional (non-alignment or race) Divine Factions. Anyone? Anyone?

[blacxthornE]

Axel, on Aug 10 2005, 05:18 AM, said:

The legends that are handed down don't have to be plausable. Look at the ridiculous things people believe nowadays.

Well, myths in real world and legends in fantasy world aren't the same. Mostly the legends in a fantasy world are considered true but just... ancient.

as to the Divine Factions: Why don't you think about opposite sides? Light vs. Shadow, Life vs. Death, Sky(or Time)Father vs. EarthMother, RighteousLeader vs. SavageWarrior, Water vs. Fire, NatureHand vs. ToolMaker, Silence vs. Music...

These are not alignment-based but philosophical contradictions, so I guess they could be alright...

[Axel]

There's no reason for fantasy myths to be any more true than real myths. After all, people will believe the most preposterous stories without question. That they live in a fantasy world only gives them more reason to believe fanciful stories.