[Raven Bloodmoon]

Diddy, you really need to do something constructive like read the core rulebooks. Until you bother to educate yourself, please refarain from gravedigging very dead topics on this site and then arguing with very knowledgeable and quite astute DMs about the mechanics of the game. The vets on this site are far from your grade school DnD acolyte and as such, have ample experience from you could gain, if you took the time to listen rather than rebuke. Dthclaw is dead on. My personal advice would be to take the time to actually read a few of the books you have and educate yourself. It will save all of us a series of very severe headaches.

[Diddy]

Sorry, I didn't realize how old they were. I was just caught up in posting a lot because I'm new.

[RedSlayer]

Ok, well, I KNOW that everybody hates this subject. I accidentaly brought it up with Raven, and that was a mistake. But, as I now have a new understanding of ECL and CR, I found that it actually works out.

According to the Core Rules:

CR: 2 Monsters of this type will cause 4 characters of this level to defeat them using 20% of its consumable resources.

1 Class Level = 1 CR

THEREFORE

a 10th level fighter has a 50% chance of beating another 10th level fighter


So, CR and ECL are very much related. As for monster HD, I am 99% sure think this works as well, but I have to check into it more.

Sorry to Gravedig, but hey, figured Id throw it out there anyways.

EDIT: good god, a year old. wow.

[Greg Swifthands]

I remember deciding awhile ago with people that ECL, CR, and LA were borked in general.


But correct me if I'm wrong, cause I'm going off 3.0 ... I thought CR representented 1 creature of this type against a party of 4 characters of the same CR/LEVEL... so like

A single CR 4 monster up against a party of 4 freshly rested 4th Level characters, of a standard party (Defined in the examples I believe as, a Fighter, a Rogue, a Wizard, and a Cleric). Would be an ample challange for the party while not having any casualties, but still using up a larger portion of their Resources (Spells and what not).

Like I said I'm going off 3.0 Knowledge and have no clue if it got changed in 3.5

[Dthclaw]

No, it's more or less the same.

Red, I think you're mixing up class levels adding to CR versus class levels adding to ECL. The core rules state that a class level that plays to the creature's strength increases its CR by 1 per class level. However, it also states that class levels that do not play to their strength increases its CR by 1 per 2 class levels added (until reaching original HD, then 1:1).

Directly comparing an ECL versus CR is also ill-advised. Strictly speaking, a CR 10 creature should be match for a party of 10th level characters. However, that CR 10 creature is not going to have 10HD - in fact, depending on its race and any class levels, it may have significantly more. In fact, a 10th level fighter soloing a 10th level NPC will beat the NPC without any problem, and the NPC has only a slim, slim chance of seriously threatening the character.

For example, let's assume that you have two 10th level human fighters, one a PC and one an NPC.

The PC should be facing CR 10 creatures.

However, the NPC is, in fact, a CR 8 creature (10 for levels -1 for NPC -1 for NPC equipment). Even if you were to give the NPC identical equipment and stats, the NPC is still only CR 9, because while it may be a threat to a single being on its own, it is no match for a group.

A few key things to remember:

1-CR and ECL are calculated differently for a reason.
2-CR is determined in part by comparing how it will fare against a party of 4 of a given level.
3-ECL is determined by comparing how it will fare against a single monster with support.

[super sorcerer]

I apoligize for rising a dead topic but while trying to make an adventure I found out a very good argument:

I tried to make an adventure with a party of illithids. they all started at 1st level (which is ECL 16). They where illithids who thought thier peaple where wrong and evil and they fell the need to leave thier evil society. The first combat encounters werewith the illithid guards (illithid 1st level sorcerers CR-9). When I calculated how many illithid guards are a chalenging encounter I found out there must be 12 guard for an encounter to be a challenging one (12 illithid guards are CR-16). If anyone may please explain to me how can a party of 4 illithids of 1st level survive 4 "challenging" encounters before resting (or even one)?

Before saying anything stupid like "they can make it becouse they have better equipment" please try to run the combat and see what happens.

1) I think that clearly show that ECL is defenitly related to CR.
2) If ECL and CR are not related how come it always happens that ECL is greater or equal to CR?

[Dthclaw]

Cripes, here we go again...

CR is related to ECL only so far as higher CR creatures have a higher ECL. That is the only direct connection.

As for the effect of equipment, you would be a fool to think that it has little to no effect. I recently nuked my party's equipment for precisely this reason.

An illithid will not realistically be challanged by the capabilities of a 1st level sorcerer (not even an illithid one). Not before having its brain ripped out.

The normal rules for ECL are generally assuming that:

1-Not everyone is playing the same monster
2-Not everyone is playing a monster
3-A PC monster is going to have equipment that directly suppliments its abilities
4-A PC monster has optimized character creation choices
5-Not everyone is playing the same monster
6-Not everyone is playing a monster
7-The characters actually have the racial hit die that figure into ECL calculation
8-Not everyone is playing the same monster

[Greg Swifthands]

I said it before, and I'll say it again...

I decided long ago CR, ECL and LA were borked, and lets through EL into the equation also, I think this is why I go with the Level-Independent Reward system when I play D&D, granted I've got only one Game I'm DMing, and that is on hold till next summer. But I've got 1 (or is it 2) Half-dragon characters playing in it. I still use the LA, but only for the Experiance thing, kinda like how in older version, Different Classes/Races had different Experiance progression.

[super sorcerer]

Quote

1-Not everyone is playing the same monster
2-Not everyone is playing a monster
3-A PC monster is going to have equipment that directly suppliments its abilities
4-A PC monster has optimized character creation choices

Quote

7-The characters actually have the racial hit die that figure into ECL calculation

Acualy asumption 7 does not help as my example they did got the racial hit dice but still if the LA system was supossed to represent power as a character it should always do it.
A party of 4 16th level human monks can still challenge this large group of 12 illithids and have much greater chance to win.
A big difference between CR and ECL is impossile becouse while ECL is about a long period and CR is about a single encounter if you can't survive a single encounter then you can't be helpfull in a long period (if the CR of the group is lower than the CR of their opponent's that usualy means that they a fair chance not to survive the encounter).
Assumption 4 is usualy very problematic becouse many time a player would like to play an ogre cleric and not an ogre barbarian and then by your assumption the ECL should change and it is a little bit strange becouse if we assume that an ogre is the same ECL as a human barbarian of 6th level (and have about the same abilities) and if the ogre take 4 levels as cleric why is it supposed to be different from a human barbarian6/cleric4 so please explain what you exactly mean by your 4th assumption.
There are a few question that remain unanswered:
1) A 16th level human monk is ECL 16 always and it does not matter what is the rest of the party (whether they are humans minotaurs or illithids), why is an illithid ECL 16 only in a human party and not in an illithid party?
2) What is the ECL of an illithid is a party of other illithidst?
3) What is the ECL of an ogre with 6 levels as cleric (when your 4th assumption does not occure)?