[Raven Bloodmoon]

Okay, here's what I was thinking about today while straightening shelves at Walgreens (don't ask):

Given: LA + total HD = ECL, 1 level in a class = HD, +1 Class Level = +1 CR.

By Substitution:
Starting HD = ECL - LA - Class Levels
Starting HD + LA + Class Levels = ECL

Therefore:
LA + Starting HD = Effective Level with zero class levels.

1 Class Level = 1 CR.

Therefore:
+1 Class Level = +1 CR

Therefore:
ECL = Effective Class Levels = CR

Stipulation of example from page 29 of the The Monster Manual:
Bugbear
Hit Dice: 3d8
Challenge Rating: 2
Level Adjustmen: +1

Starting HD = 3, LA = 1, Class Levels = 0, Starting HD + LA + Class Levels = ECL
Therefore:

Starting HD + LA + Class Levels = ECL
3 + 1 + 0 = ECL
4 = ECL

CR = 2, ECL = 4, CR = ECL
Therefore:

CR = ECL
2 =/= 4

There is a major inconsistancy. Please explain. I showed my work so everyone could see where I was coming from. One of my assumptions is obviously incorrect. The most likely place for that would either be the method by which on determines the effective class level of a character or that adding 1 class level to a monster increases its CR by 1.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[pessimist]

I'll look into this when I'm home with my books. But, if those given equations are given as more than a "rule of thumb" there's definitely an inconsistency. I always thought the CR was a bit subjective anyway, as the "power" of two characters can vary wildly even if they're the same level.

[Linklegacy77]

pessimist, on Aug 1 2005, 01:05 PM, said:

I'll look into this when I'm home with my books.  But, if those given equations are given as more than a "rule of thumb" there's definitely an inconsistency.  I always thought the CR was a bit subjective anyway, as the "power" of two characters can vary wildly even if they're the same level.

It says in the back of the monster manual I think, that CR for a monster is much harder to check. Monsters with lower hit dies with good extraordinary abilities can be a match for a monster with good hit dies but nothing for extraordinary. Magic spells they have can increase their CR. It's rather difficult to figure out, there isn't a set system for CR.

[pessimist]

That was the general impression I always had of CR.

[Dthclaw]

CR and ECL are actually not related. CR measures the power of a creature as it stands for a single encounter, and is relegated strictly to NPCs, while ECL measures the power of a creature as it stands for a long-term player character, and is relegated strictly to PCs. They measure two different things: one (CR) is how difficult the creature is to overcome, while the other (ECL) is how powerful the creature is as a character. Thus, the inconsistencies between CR and ECL. A creature's ECL is almost always higher than its CR, because the abilities and attributes of the creature become much, much more powerful when given into the hands of a long-term character instead of a (generally) single use monster.

And, as previously stated, CR has no formula for determination. It is pretty much just an eyeball thing.

[dragonhand777]

Dthclaw, on Aug 1 2005, 12:40 PM, said:

CR and ECL are actually not related.  CR measures the power of a creature as it stands for a single encounter, and is relegated strictly to NPCs, while ECL measures the power of a creature as it stands for a long-term player character, and is relegated strictly to PCs.  They measure two different things: one (CR) is how difficult the creature is to overcome, while the other (ECL) is how powerful the creature is as a character.  Thus, the inconsistencies between CR and ECL.  A creature's ECL is almost always higher than its CR, because the abilities and attributes of the creature become much, much more powerful when given into the hands of a long-term character instead of a (generally) single use monster.

And, as previously stated, CR has no formula for determination.  It is pretty much just an eyeball thing.

All of that info is given in one of the books. It's in either the DM's Guide or the MM.

Please keep in mind, not all the rules for D&D are meant to be mathmatilcally consistent. They are abstract concepts.

[RedSlayer]

Boy does this sound familair,

Dont forget, the creature type must be taken into consideration: outsider, abberition and whatnot.

Also, mathematics might work if you take into account that CR is a rating of difficulty of TWO of those monsters against your average party of four. some division might be in order.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

I am not talking about a minor discrepency in a slope field here. I am talking about a book asserting that 4 = 2. There is a slight problem when 4 = 2. Now to the point.

Someone tell me the difference between a DM controlling a character and a player controlling a character?

What is the difference between a bunch of NPC fighters in a squad attacking the PCs or the fighters in a squad being the PCs? Their power is the same. That is what should be measured. Not who is in control of them.

So does ECL measure the power of a creature or does CR?

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Okay, let's try it this way so that no more people see a mathematical symbol and have their head implode. By the way, I used a mathematical proof to demonstrate my thinking. It shows the assumptions I made and the way I combined them so that a person could look at it and say, "At step three you screwed up." Apparently, no one here can look past the little plus signs and equal signs to understand what is actually being said, so I have written out the argument below for all those who are either too distracted by the exotic symbology or frightened by the prospect of reading 7th grade algebra.

Level Adjustment combines with the creature's racial hit dice to yield an effective character level. That effective character level is of the same power as a human with that number of PC classes (or should be if the LA is correct). Now, a human with a given number of PC classes has a CR (assuming propper equipment as given by Table 5.1 in the DMG) equal to its level. It would seem to follow that the effective character level of a monster should then be its CR, and the addition of a number of class levels will increase that CR by the number of class levels added. This is apparently not the case, as shown by the example of the Illithid, whose CR is 8 and ECL is 15. One of these numbers is not an accurate measure of the creature's power. Which is it? If LA can in any way be derived from CR, it would open up a lot of other monsters for use as characters.

[pessimist]

If you point to your "givens" in one of the source books I'll provide some meaningful input.

[Dthclaw]

No, no, no. Raven, CR and ECL are not related. I cannot stress enough that they are two entirely different measures: CR measures how strong a creature is in a single encounter while ECL measures how strong a creature is in the long run. The Illithid is CR 8 because a party of 8th level characters are reasonably challanged by one. The Illithid is also ECL 15 because in a party its powers and abilities put it on par with 15th level PCs. They do not equal except in the case of - essentially - PC races as monsters or similar (a Kobold with class levels, for example).

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Well, I can tell you that red and I have found an interesting correlation that only seems to break down in one instance.

It appears that in races whose LA is not inteded solely for purposes of determining cohort levels, (i.e. those without ___ as Characters sections in their descriptions), the CR = LA +1. The only exception found so far is that of the Hobgoblin.

[Dthclaw]

Odd, but I'm not sure if it is intentional. As it has been stated, there is no hard and fast formula for determining CR in most cases.

[Vaskre]

Angel, Astral Deva

CR: 14.
LA: +8.

Unless I failed basic math, I do believe 8 +1 = 9, which most certainly does not = 14.

Also the same for Trumpet Archon,

CR: 14.
LA: +8.

Athach's as well.

CR: 8.

LA: +5.

Not even out of the A's yet and there's three examples..

Quote

Apparently, no one here can look past the little plus signs and equal signs to understand what is actually being said, so I have written out the argument below for all those who are either too distracted by the exotic symbology or frightened by the prospect of reading 7th grade algebra.

And was that supposed to be some kind of insult against the people here?

[Dthclaw]

*points to prior posts rather than try to explain again that CR and ECL are not related