[Raven Bloodmoon]

Here is one place where I think I differ with Woe, though this seems to be turning out to be rare. Ships are analogous to monsters, intelligent items, and strongholds in that, once you make your ship, it is made. There is no more computation involved. So that initial computation can be complex and time consuming. And even that can be made easier with a nifty little spreadsheet. You'd love the drive train modeling I've done in Excel to spec out the performance of various vehicles.

On a side note relevant to what is to follow in this post, Does anyone know how to make Excel calculate a definite integral?

Anyway...I agree that mass is more important than volume. After all, mass is the measure of how much there is, so to speak (don't flame me for this oversimplification, please). However, calculating the mass of a ship during the construction phase is not that difficult, as long as you set up some general principles.

Article I

Article I shall cover the manner in which Mass is dealt.

Section I

There shall be a number of Categories containing different Ship Functions and Qualities. These shall be as listed below.

Hull shall refer to both the Hull of the Ship and any Armor thereon.

Superstructure shall refer to the Internal Structure of the Ship, including but no limited to framework, internal decking, walls, doors, etc....

Weapon Systems shall refer to all Weapons and Support Equipment for these, not including the Ship Power Plant.

Propulsion shall refer to all Engines, Drives, and other forms of Propulsion used purely for sub light-speed locomotion.

Star Drive shall refer to all Engines, Drives, and other forms of Propulsion used purely for super light-speed locomotion.

Power Plant shall refer to all Generators, Piles, Batteries, and Other Sources of Power.

Ship Systems shall refer to all Devices that do not fall into one of the previous categories.

The Dungeonmaster has the power to classify each element of a ship as he deems necessary and proper.

Section II

The Mass of each Category shall be calculated separately in the following manner.

The Mass of the Hull is a function of Surface Area of a Scalene Ellipsoid* with Great Axes equal to the ship's Length, Width, and Height, as modified by the Armor Bonus, Damage Reduction, and Density of Materials Used.

The Mass of the Superstructure is a function of the Volume of a Scalene Ellipsoid** with Great Axes equal to the ship's Length, Width, and Height, as modified by the Ship's General Density and the Density of Materials used.

The Weapon Systems will be the sum of the Mass of all Weapons included in the Ship. The Mass of a Weapon shall be given in its description.

The Mass of Propulsion will be the sum of the Mass of all Engines, Drives, and other forms of Propulsion used purely for super light-speed locomotion. They will be a function of the maximum speed of the Ship, the Maneuverability of the ship, the maximum Acceleration of the ship, the Mass of all Categories excluding Propulsion, Star Drive, and Power Plant.

The Mass of the Star Drive will be a function of the total mass of all other Categories.

The Mass of the Power Plant will be a function of the Power Requirements of each System, not including the Star Drive.

The Sum of the Mass of all Categories shall be equal to the Mass of the Ship.

Subsection I

The Ship's General Density is a relative approximation of how much empty space the ship contains. There will be three Densities: Freighter, Private, and Military. Each is successively denser than the previous.

*Surface Area of a Scalene Ellipsoid = 2 pi * [(a^p * b^p + a^p * c^p + b^p * c^p)/3]^(1/p), where a, b, and c are semiaxes and p = 1.6075. The relative error is at most 1.067% according to Knud Thomsen’s formula.

**Volume of a Scalene Ellipsoid = 3/4pabc, where a, b, and c are the three great axes of the ellipsoid.

Article II

Article II shall cover manner in which Power is dealt. For the purpose of determining the Power Requirements of a Ship, each system will be assigned a Power Requirement statistic, which shall be included in the system’s description. The sum of the Power Requirements for all the Ship Systems is the Total Power Requirement. If the Total Power Requirement is equal to or less than the Power Output of the Ship’s Power Plant, all systems function properly. If the Total Power Requirement is greater than the Ship’s Power Plant, each system performs at a level below the optimal proportional according to the following formula:

Performance = ( [Power Requirement] - [Power Output] ) / [Power Output]

End

This is just the beginning of the guidelines for ship construction I propose, and would love to see amendments and appendages.

By this point, some of you must be asking yourselves, “Why is he so obsessed with scalene ellipsoids?” Here is my reason. They are the closest and most favorable measure of a ship of a given size. We cannot know the exact volume or surface area of our ships, but we can approximate it. The surface are of such an ellipsoid will be the smallest a ship of the given dimensions can possibly have. The volume is just about a midpoint between a ship that is a rectangular prism and a ship that is a giant three-dimensional plus sign. Thus I think the ellipsoid is the best approximation we have. And thanks to spreadsheets, the calculations should only be as much of a headache as it takes to program the sheet once.

[Lyinginbedmon]

That's so far over my head it's hitting God smack in the face

Note: I'm still an Atheist, I'm just using God as a reference to how high that went

[Raven Bloodmoon]

That is precisely why I just made this. Mind you, this is not even a complete first version.....grr....it won't let me upload my spreadsheet. Oh well...I'll figure something out.

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

Oh hey. For the entire speed thing, I remember reading something in one of my Dragon magazines about a spell that would allow you to go something like 10x faster if you first moved a full fly distance and if you move only in a straight line. Meaning if your fly speed is something like 60', the first round you go 60' and then this spell kicks in and you move at 600'. I'll look it up when I get home.

[Dthclaw]

Well, okay, depending on what the basic workings are of the prop system, mass could be the deciding factor. If its just generating an area-field that has the same effect regardless of how much its moving inside the field (which I personally would think more likely, given it seems based on teleport - self plus x pounds), volume is the deciding factor. If it moves so much mass in the field regardless of how big the object is , then mass is the deciding factor, yes. Comes down to personal belief, I guess, since there's nothing that needs to be proven one way or the other.

Raven, I hate to sound negative, but I think there's too much going on to determine mass, density, etc. Just give each section a reasonable number based on broad categories, add it up, and call it good. If you fill the cargo bay, for example, eyeball the numbers based on what its filled with and plug it into a single equation. I doubt players would appreciate a DM having to go through all the math (especially setting up definite integrals *holds up cross*) everytime something changes with their ship, since even with a spreadsheet, they have to change the numbers, doublecheck they're right, then actually set up the spreadsheet to calculate. Even for just a few minutes, it'll seem like too much. Just set it up like a creature with a given speed, maneuverability, distance per charge, etc. Sorcery and Steam is a good book to look at for handling vehicles (as is the various d20 Modern / Future[?] stuff). Simplifies everything a lot, and simplicity may seem undesirable, but trust me, the less deep thinking that has to go into it, the smoother it goes, and the more fun it is for everyone involved.

[Axel]

Your mass is completely off. You're forgetting a huge part of the mass of the ship in use: the crew and cargo. Even regarding the Tarrasque, with no cargo, we have 32 people aboard, their effects, and supplies needed to sustain them. All of these things are variable from one ship to the next. Imagine, if you will, the star freighter (searches desperately for a name)... Edmond Fitzgerald, lost in an ion storm. Now, the Fitzgerald weighs a hellofalot more with its cargo holds full than empty. Assuming weight classes it could jump from a Light to a Heavy. If we are forced to use a spreadsheet to calculate the cost of a charge by mass for the Fitzgerald we'd have to do so for it empty, half-full, and full. And that's the minimum. Plus, weight isn't constant. The battlecruiser Behemoth, for example, could have significant chunks blown away in combat when the crew plug the FTL drive in a desperate attempt to retreat. The Tarrasque could put in for a refit, have its hull relined with a defense material, or have new equipment installed.
Weight classes, however, are general enough to be applied in all situations and can be used in a way to never deliver fractions of a charge.

[Dthclaw]

Not sure if I'm the target of Axel's post, but I agree that something broad like weight classes would be preferable to running a spreadsheet all the time for our ship.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Firstly, you are right. I forgot crew and cargo mass. That was my mistake. Secondly, I am not proposing that any solves a definite integral. Certain aspects of the ship are not going to change often at all unless a massive modification is applied, like making the ship bigger or smaller in size. As with a stronghold, even such action requires some computations to determine costs, xp costs, labor pools, logistics for acquiring materials, protection during construction, etc. Using a simple spreadsheet provided for you to figure out ship statistics (that will literally only require you to choose teh dimensions of the ship, and variable directly related to the ship's operation like quality of propulsion, weapon systems, etc) will spit out the ship you are trying to design. And once you design a ship, you don't redesign it because someone stepped onboard. And anyone who even thinks about sittign down to recalculate the ship EACH time something about it changes deserves to lose all of his players.

What I am talking about is the "physics" behind the ship. If we create a framework that applies to all startravel, we create a system that will provide consistancy and allow for the creation of future ships. And if math scares any of you, I'll leave it ALL out of the discussion and take care of it myself (having tutored several engineers, biologists, and systems analysts in math in college, it no longer frightens me).

Here is the question we need to reach an agreement on right now:

Does the power drain on the stardrive depend on the volume transported or the mass transported?

We'll use a straight majority rules on this. I vote volume.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Dthclaw, on Jun 3 2005, 11:04 PM, said:

I doubt players would appreciate a DM having to go through all the math (especially setting up definite integrals *holds up cross*) everytime something changes with their ship, since even with a spreadsheet, they have to change the numbers, doublecheck they're right, then actually set up the spreadsheet to calculate.  Even for just a few minutes, it'll seem like too much.  Just set it up like a creature with a given speed, maneuverability, distance per charge, etc.

Sorry, but one more thing. Have you ever gone through the process of creating a good, detailed monster? It takes time. But once it is finished, it does not change. That is all I am proposing right now. Give this bit some depth so when you slack later by just throwing something together, it behaves the way it should.

Btw, on the note of upgrades, I say handle them in a VERY simple fashion: You upgrade things x%. You make it x% faster. Just apply the % increase, and you are done. That's the main modification to a ship you'll see, I suspect. Unless you get an engineer in your gaming group (~crosses fingers that Ryan is nice~).

[Raven Bloodmoon]

I promise I'll not post again here until someone else does first, but I just read dthclw's last post on Intersteller Magic, and it touched on something we have completely ignored. Ley Lines. Has anyone thought about using a drive that takes advanged of ley lines between planets/systems/locations? The fey have probably visited other planets via planes and created their own ley lines for faster, safer travel. If a ship can ride one, it would take less power, be safer, and probably let us throw out a lot of the rubbish I've cluttered this thread with. Let's have ANOTHER vote...wee....nothing like democracy.

[Shadowkami]

On the matter of weaponry, I reckon (see) the range should be increased, A 500yd range will not get you far, An identical ship with a higher range can just circle round and fire at the HDMS tarrasque and there is nothiny wou can do about it. The weapon needs to be able to penetrate admantium and force walls at a long distance with some accuracy... Any Ideas?

[Lyinginbedmon]

Doomsday? If someone manages to get a hold of a space-operational weapon that can pierce the only shielding ships have and the whole world goes up faster than you can say explosive decompression. Missiles or rather torpedoes would be useful, and disintegration rays are a must to get the shields down for them to work at best effect.

It's all a matter of balance, you need a powerful weapon that is easily counterable should the enemy get a hold of it

P-Minus 11

[Dthclaw]

Sorry Raven, it just seemed like you were saying that you were planning to go through calculations everytime something changed. But if its just a process to create the stats, then I guess its fine (still seems like a little much, but okay).

As for my post on ley lines, perhaps you could have some special bonus for taking advantage of them - extra speed or reduced charges to get somewhere. Plus, it provides more of a fantasy flavor (which is always important to preserve when mixing fantasy and sci-fi in a primarily fantasy setting).

Just increase the range on the d-rays (massively- space combat is not a close-quarters affair, with ranges under a few thousand miles considered knife-fighting); don't start throwing in missiles unless you really have to (especially when we're talking about a non-military survey vessel). Unless, of course, you want to go the Darius or Woe route and start flinging elementals and golems at other ships.

[Lyinginbedmon]

I feel that weapons are an important asset for a frontier scout ship such as the Tarrasque. Scouts, though granted not very heavily armoured to preserve their speed, naturally required weapons to defend themselves with so that they could deliver word of their enemies to their superiors

P-Minus: 9

[Raven Bloodmoon]

tis all good. but like I said, I don't seem to be able to post that excel sheet as an attachment here. I was hoping to share it and let people alpha test it and also make suggestions. As far as the crew/cago is concerned, I see two options: a) assume full load at all times or have two sets of stats where mass affects things.