[Egoslayer1]

The craft skill as it stands in the rules is meant to be simple and straight forward, something it accomplishes admirably. It is NOT logical, or accurate for any serious crafting, like when players want to make a business out of something. In it's simplicity, the craft rules have several flaws.

example 1 (materials): Assume you want to make a cannon ball out of steel, just a round sphere say...10" in diameter. It will take you 1000 times longer to make it out of gold than steel, even though gold is softer, has a lower melting point and is generally easier to work with. This is because the market price for the gold is higher. The problem is there is no correlation between the effort involved (expressed as the target craft number) and the materials being worked.

example 2 (harder is faster): Assume you are a 20th level silversmith and you want to make a plain silver wedding band, lets say the DC is 5. If you were to also make an intricate silver ring with scrollwork and engravings (say DC20), you could make the complicated ring much faster than a simple band because the DC is higher, which makes no sense at all.

Example 3 (loss of materials): The book rules say if your fail the DC by 5 or more, you ruin 1/2 your raw materials. IF you do the math, it makes it statistically impossible for NPC's to stay in business unless you make them high level with a lot of skill ranks. As an example, to make a set of normal full plate, on average, you won't be profitable until you have at least a +11 to your skill check. At +10 its about 50/50 on loosing money or making a profit. IF you want the full plate to be master work, you cannot do that until you have at least +9 for the masterwork component.

Example 4 (Masterwork): If you want to make a set of full plate as in the above example, it does not take a more skilled armorer to make MW full plate than it does the base full plate. Your craft modifier needs to be higher for the full plate portion than it does the MW portion of the project, even though the MW portion has a higher DC. Seems to me like it should. I think MW should be a DC modifier. The fixed MW DC results in some hard to explain situations.

Suppose you want to make a plain round buckler (DC11), value 15gp and you have +1 to the appropriate craft skill. It will likely roughly a week and a couple days. Suppose you want to make it a MW buckler now. It suddenly takes an average of around 35 weeks, with a net cost of 800-900gp from lost materials. Now I know you say at only +1 you shouldn't be making MW buckers but come on? It's a buckler? Even at +1 shouldn't you be able to go very slowly and carefully and it not take 35 weeks and 900gp?

Anyway, I developed a method to factor in the original book craft DC, a multiplier representing how hard to work a material is, the amount of material being worked, and any special modifications (like masterwork).

I've attached it here, it's not simple but it seems close to what makes sense. If anyone has any more elegant approaches I'd be interested in hearing them.

3 tabs
Craft Calculator - my new method, auto generates, or lets you roll your checks
Craft (research) - my working page to tweak the formulas and test output figures
Craft (book) - auto craft using book methods, shows profit and loss

ES

Attached File(s)

•  _Gen__Craft_Skill_Calculator_11.zip (29.92K)
  Number of downloads: 82

[dragonhand777]

Quote

Now I know you say at only +1 you shouldn't be making MW buckers but come on? It's a buckler? Even at +1 shouldn't you be able to go very slowly and carefully and it not take 35 weeks and 900gp?

It is a measure of skill. Some one with only a +1 or only one rank does not have near the amount of skill of some one with a + 10.

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

Also, in the case of something like craft, there is no "take 20" that you can just use to take an inordinate amount of time to create something.

[Egoslayer1]

I allow someone to take 10 or take 20, IF a result of 1 would not result in being more than 5 below the target DC. Meaning, if there is no dice result where you can loose money (in raw materials), then I see no reason they can't take 10 or 20, since there is then no negative consequences for failure, or rather they cannot fail.

ES

Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri, on May 30 2005, 07:38 PM, said:

Also, in the case of something like craft, there is no "take 20" that you can just use to take an inordinate amount of time to create something.

[blacxthornE]

Ah, there is, actually. The negative consequence for failure is a waste of time.

[Jimp]

I think allowing players to take 10 or 20 when crafting is really unbalancing, even if it is time consuming. If your going to allow it you should increase the raw material cost by 3 or 4 times the origional since there's no way even by going as slowly as possible that they'll get it perfect first time.

[Dthclaw]

Sorry Ego, but the reason that you can't take 10 or 20 on crafting is because even if you wouldin't destroy your raw materials, you might not produce anything good or useful. Not to mention the fact that even if you do take a long time, if you aren't skilled enough to do it normally, all you've accomplished is banging away at something and producing nothing but killed time.

[Rintaran]

I'm going to have to agree. What you're doing is borking the rules even further and unbalancing the game for what is really no constructive reason.

As for your first post, you aren't making much sense.

In 4) you say:

Quote

Your craft modifier needs to be higher for the full plate portion than it does the MW portion of the project, even though the MW portion has a higher DC.

This is very contradictory. If making something MW has a higher DC than making the full plate, how could making the full plate be harder? Anyhow, the solution is simple, just up the DC for the MW, that automatically makes it more difficult to fix.

For example three: The book is being generous with the loss of materials. Generally, in actual craftwork, if you [FLOP] something up, you lose all the materials, not half. As for it being unprofitable, you're only right it the craftsman is trying to make something out of his league. Craftsmen know their limits. They start small, with simple things, and as they become more skilled they move up. Basically, the more ranks you have in craft(whatever), the better items you can make. That's how it works. That's also why back in the old days, you had to be apprenticed first.

I'm looking at example 2, and I find myself nodding. Then I find myself going, where does it say that? And you know something, I can't find it. Got a page number?

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

If the DC for the item is higher, then it takes more time to make and is harder. I have no idea what you are talking about with example 2,

[Faradon]

Jimp, on Jun 1 2005, 11:23 AM, said:

I think allowing players to take 10 or 20 when crafting is really unbalancing, even if it is time consuming. If your going to allow it you should increase the raw material cost by 3 or 4 times the origional since there's no way even by going as slowly as possible that they'll get it perfect first time.

Come on guys, cut the guy a break. Unbalancing??? Let's apply some every day common sense to a situation, which is what the original poster seems to be trying to do...

Let's say you asked an accomplished blacksmith to create 100 horseshoes for a unit of 25 mounted knights. Let's also say that this is a trivial task for him and that the only way he can fail is to roll a 1 (like how the original poster allows his players to take 10 with)

As long as he is not being rushed to make these shoes in an incredibly short amount of time, being forced to use tools that aren't meant for this type of work, or given substandard materials to work with, I see no reason that this should require skill rolls at all. Requiring skill rolls for a "trivial" task is overcomplicating things. Everyday tasks (which differ from person to person depending on job and skill) are not things that should require skill rolls unless there are extenuating circumstances.

We're only dealing with a die that has 20 sides here. If by rolling a 1 you seriously botch something up... that means 1 in every 20 times you attempt something (on average) you are doomed to botch it. That seems a little bit harsh when you look at it a little closer. I think there would be a lot of street and circus performers missing limbs and seriously injured or dead if 1 in every 20 times a high-wire act fell to the ground below, or 1 in every 20 times someone juggling chainsaws "slipped up"... not to mention construction workers, a scientist dealing with deadly virus, a demolitions expert using C-4... the list goes on and on.

Finally, someone said: Ah, there is, actually. The negative consequence for failure is a waste of time.

That's the point of taking 10 or 20... you are already spending more time doing it. If wasted time was a consequence for failure then you would never be able to take 10 or 20 on anything... because that would apply to every action, to include picking your nose or getting dressed in the morning.


-Faradon

[Dthclaw]

It's still an argument that isn't supported at all by the game rules or life, though. Look at the rules for taking 10 and 20. If there is a consequence for failure (as there is in Craft, with lost materials), then you cannot ever take 10 or 20 unless you have a specific class ability that allows you to override this rule (like the Rogue's skill mastery). There is no such ability for Craft, none was suggested, and it still doesn't change the fact that even incredible experts in a field make mistakes and screw up.

"I haven't failed [to invent a filament]. I've found two thousand ways that don't work." - Thomas Edison

[blacxthornE]

Why is everyone missing the point in taking 20?

Taking 10 represents fulfilling a task with no special effort, when a character doesn't have anything to worry about. Thus, a player accepts that the character makes an average effort, so he won't take the chance of messing up if there's no need for over-achievement. Thus, it can be acceptable on a trivial crafting task, such as a little wooden spoon. The time the task takes taking 10 is the same as when it does rolling the die.

Taking 20, however, is *not* the same thing. It represents *failing* the task 19 times before achieving it, not automatically gaining the best result possible. Thus, taking 20 in craft is ridiculous; failing to craft a spoon 19 times is not something a "hero" would be proud of. Besides, how can you call a task "trivial" if you fail doing it 19 times in a row before succeeding once in it?

[Faradon]

<< There is no such ability for Craft, none was suggested, and it still doesn't change the fact that even incredible experts in a field make mistakes and screw up.>>

I won't argue that experts still make mistakes... but to say that 1 in every 20 times they are going to screw up that badly is just silly. This is one of the big drawbacks to using a D20 for a skill system and then forcing rolls for every action. You need to give on one side or the other in order to apply some intelligence to the situation.

A character with the kind of skill needed to fail only on a 1 is equivelant in my eyes to an olympic athlete... they have reached a near pinnacle of human performance and skill in a given area. You show me an olympic gymnastic who fails 1 in every 20 times they do a summersault, or an olympic hand gun shooter that misses 1 in every 20 shots from a stationary position on a stationary target 20 feet away.

-Faradon

[Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri]

Can't argue with you much there but I would like you to show me the person who can repeat one task the exact same way 1000 times. That is how I see taking 10.

Here is the olympic example: What about the olympic shooter who would have won the gold if he had just hit is target anywhere? This person was able to hit the bullseye even but didn't win. Why? Because this person did not hit its own target.

[Faradon]

Ssri-Tel-Quessir Hitokiri, on Jun 23 2005, 12:02 PM, said:

Can't argue with you much there but I would like you to show me the person who can repeat one task the exact same way 1000 times.  That is how I see taking 10.

Here is the olympic example: What about the olympic shooter who would have won the gold if he had just hit is target anywhere?  This person was able to hit the bullseye even but didn't win.  Why?  Because this person did not hit its own target.

Lol, yea... that was pretty funny when it happened. But he didn't miss what he was aiming at

Now of course not every task will be exactly the same 1000 times, but an expert blacksmith (with skill to only fail on a 1) will easily be able to make a "useable" suit of regular chainmail every almost every time he tries (fail 1 in 1000?) and even if he failed, it is most likely something he could easily repair without losing more than just a small portion of materials. Will it all be perfect? Probably not. Will it maybe have some cosmetic problems here and there? Sure, he's just making regular every day arms and armor... this guy can forge dragonlances with this kind of skill... everyday items he does in his sleep.

The real question would be, when a PC has that much skill, why bore himself month after month making regular arms and armor while the rest of his friends are out adventuring? Sounds like a retired character to me. (NPC)

-Faradon