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2 Comments
Darn it all if I didn't get myself into another one of those tinker brainstorms. I'm getting to the point of practically hauling off and creating my own bloody RPG system with the number of rules I seem to be implementing and considering.
The most recent one, and one I fear I may have repercussions similar to a dropped bee's nest, is tossing out the idea of putting magic more in line with a lot of other things in d20.
I've noticed that a lot of abilities get more difficult to resist in tempo with a character's leveling or a monster's advancement. Breath weapons, fear effects, poison, a lot of supernatural abilities, hell, even most class abilities... they all have a built-in means of keeping their power in line with the ability of players (or the reversal) to deal with them via saving throws.
And then I look at magic. The supposedly total ownage of any group or encounter with save-or-die or fistful of damage or any number of effects.
Most of them allow saving throws. But the DCs are determined via a near-static calculation.
I have a party of 12th level characters that are virtually immune to most of what a 20th level caster could do, by sheer virtue of their save bonuses. Similarly, most 12th level NPCs would be effectively immune to most things the party can throw at them. For being fantastically overpowered, magic seems pretty bloody impotent to me for the most part.
Consider: a Human caster that starts with 18 in a relevant ability score, increases it at every chance possible in every conceivable way and winds up with a base DC (before adding spell level) of 20 at 20th level. Factor in spell level and perhaps a lot of Spell Focus, and we're looking at a maximum of 31, 32 ish save DC.
I have a 12th level party that can make that ~1/3 - 1/2 the time. Toss in a ring of evasion or a few levels in Monk or Rogue, they're pretty much untouchable.
It's frustrating from a DM standpoint, because it means that I'm either unable to make magic suitably intimidating for players, or I have to tell them that, no, their spell had no effect yet again. It's been suggested that save-less spells should be used, then. Well, the problem there is that most saveless spells tend to be less-than-useful. Or require some other problematic factor (like touch attacks... goddamn touch attacks).
I'd like to do a scaled DC determination, using something like +1/2 CL or something. Magic shouldn't be broken, but for god's sake it should at least be worrisome when something starts chucking spells around.
The most recent one, and one I fear I may have repercussions similar to a dropped bee's nest, is tossing out the idea of putting magic more in line with a lot of other things in d20.
I've noticed that a lot of abilities get more difficult to resist in tempo with a character's leveling or a monster's advancement. Breath weapons, fear effects, poison, a lot of supernatural abilities, hell, even most class abilities... they all have a built-in means of keeping their power in line with the ability of players (or the reversal) to deal with them via saving throws.
And then I look at magic. The supposedly total ownage of any group or encounter with save-or-die or fistful of damage or any number of effects.
Most of them allow saving throws. But the DCs are determined via a near-static calculation.
I have a party of 12th level characters that are virtually immune to most of what a 20th level caster could do, by sheer virtue of their save bonuses. Similarly, most 12th level NPCs would be effectively immune to most things the party can throw at them. For being fantastically overpowered, magic seems pretty bloody impotent to me for the most part.
Consider: a Human caster that starts with 18 in a relevant ability score, increases it at every chance possible in every conceivable way and winds up with a base DC (before adding spell level) of 20 at 20th level. Factor in spell level and perhaps a lot of Spell Focus, and we're looking at a maximum of 31, 32 ish save DC.
I have a 12th level party that can make that ~1/3 - 1/2 the time. Toss in a ring of evasion or a few levels in Monk or Rogue, they're pretty much untouchable.
It's frustrating from a DM standpoint, because it means that I'm either unable to make magic suitably intimidating for players, or I have to tell them that, no, their spell had no effect yet again. It's been suggested that save-less spells should be used, then. Well, the problem there is that most saveless spells tend to be less-than-useful. Or require some other problematic factor (like touch attacks... goddamn touch attacks).
I'd like to do a scaled DC determination, using something like +1/2 CL or something. Magic shouldn't be broken, but for god's sake it should at least be worrisome when something starts chucking spells around.
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Raven Bloodmoon
14 March 2007 - 06:12 AM
I agree ina large part. It is frustrating when you have a spell that is an all or nothing on a saving throw. As a player, it sucks when nothing you do can hurt your opponent. It feels like wasted spells. On the other hand, how do you try to kill yoru players without DM fiat? One thing I might suggest is nerfing the "save negates" spells into "save (partial)" spells. That way even if you make your save, it still sucks a little. Alternatively, don't dish out as many save-boosting magic items. After reading your blog entry, I might scale them back, myself. And don't get me started on Meddle. Just imagine a gestalt or dual classed Monk / Hexblade. Talk about a mage killer...
Dthclaw
07 July 2007 - 04:06 PMQUOTE(Raven Bloodmoon @ Mar 14 2007, 01:12 AM)
I agree ina large part. It is frustrating when you have a spell that is an all or nothing on a saving throw. As a player, it sucks when nothing you do can hurt your opponent. It feels like wasted spells. On the other hand, how do you try to kill yoru players without DM fiat? One thing I might suggest is nerfing the "save negates" spells into "save (partial)" spells. That way even if you make your save, it still sucks a little. Alternatively, don't dish out as many save-boosting magic items. After reading your blog entry, I might scale them back, myself. And don't get me started on Meddle. Just imagine a gestalt or dual classed Monk / Hexblade. Talk about a mage killer...
Lol. It's been so long since I've checked my blog this is the first I realized I had a comment on it
I don't actually give out *any* resistance items. The players make a point of purchasing or custom-ordering such items whenever they're in a sufficiently large city. Since I've established rules on item availability, it kinda ties my hands to say 'nope, no save boosters here- try again later.'
I could try nerfing save negates to save partial... but do you have any idea how many 'save negates' spells there are in the PHB alone? And with a group that's rabid about the Spell Compendium... I just don't have that kind of time. I generally try to avoid effects that allow saves as a result or just send a few enormous meat-tanks at them... no save allowed against a sword-swing, and attack bonus is a lot easier to increase than AC.
I'm thinking about making some sort of Over-burn feat or something that allows casters to up save DCs for some kind of drawback (probably lethal/non-lethal damage) or using Warcraft's method of spontaneous save DC increase in exchange for risking corruption damage and effects.
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